Rover V8

[puff]

old style non-serpentine system:

IMG_20140527_225041.jpg (973.27 KiB) Viewed 20185 times

the crank pulley is the lower one in the middle. to install the trigger wheel, i need to remove the alternator belt (to the right). the AC belt (to the left). the water pump pulley (the left one, with the plastic prop on it - I do not remember exactly, probably there is a tensioning pulley, which is hidden behind it on this photo), the pulley from I don't know what (the right one - probably, power steering pump?), and then - a huge nut (with a socket head #27, metric size, or even bigger, and a lever). Well. I checked - the alternator and AC belts should be no problem (hope so). The rest is not that clear.
Then there should be some space to install the trigger wheel, without ruining the planes of these belts). Put everything back to its position. Tighten the belts properly (not too loose, not too stiff). Tighten the nut. Argh…

[kb1gtt]

You can't add something under the distributor cap?

[puff]

of course I could have added some sort of disk/sensor inside the dizzy, but! that won't be as precise, as with normal trigger wheel. i won't be able to achieve 10 degrees accuracy wih the disc and it would rotate twice slower than the crankshaft...
so, this initial setup seems to be the only reasonable solution.

[kb1gtt]

I once saw an engine that had the sensor on the flywheel. I'm not sure why we don't see more of that. Basically it was flywheel for precision measurements with CAM / distributor cap for TDC. Might be easier to add a sensor there, than adding a wheel to the crank, so I figured I'd mention it. However mashing the starter might also create some issues. What happens if you grind the starter while it's running and you loose a tooth or two? I guess that could be fixed by reprogramming it to be a skipped tooth wheel

Any how, cool project. Keep us posted on how it goes.

[puff]

i am also wondering
as far as i know, some more modern rovers do get the cankshaft speed from the flywheel sensor. as well as some audis. not sure if they are the same teeth that are used by starter motor, or the additional 'crown' bolted on the flywheel. anyway there should be a reason for so many ms users choosing the pulley method...

[puff]

great news, everyone!
the intake manifold is on its way to the engine + i got a buch of smd parts for frankenstein.
bad news is some of them are marked pbf which makes them way harder to handle with…
Any ideas on ESD protection while soldering? should the iron be disconnected from the mains? are there any testing procedures to verify that parts haven't been damaged during soldering?

[puff]

here's the one I'm awaiting for:



There are various of schemes for EFI: some of them use power resistors in series with injectors:

Plus8mapuk.jpg (174.99 KiB) Viewed 20127 times

what are they for? do I also need these?

[kb1gtt]

Looks like mostly standard sensors. i don't see cam or crank.

[AndreyB]

"458 Power Resistors"? Are you asking about these?

[puff]

exactly! ms setup doesn't suggest any resistors (or they are installed onboard)

[kb1gtt]

Do you know if these are lowZ or highZ? If not you can simply put a meter on it when you get it physically. Seems it's a way that they tuned for different emission controls in different markets. I would say don't worry about them, as you can tune that in software. I also see there are some manuals found here that might be of help, but it seems you need to register to download. http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=16466

[puff]

Right! Folks from AU forum explained: that scheme was for earlier type engines, which used LowZ. I don't need any.

Today I had been to my garage twice.
The first time I bought and brought the new battery, but I forgot the keys from the car.
The second time I successfully undid the crank pulley bolt with that ugly trick, putting a socket onto the bolt and leaning the lever against the car frame, then starting the engine.
I undid the alternator belt. With some pain in the back I almost undid the belt from the steering pump (put the belt on to the second groove).
But I stuck with the tensioning pulley of the water pump belt. Need a 1/2inch ring wrench for that job. The bolt fixing that pulley is utterly inconvenient - its head is blocked with the crank pulley, and there is almost no space to place a spanner.
Don't know if I manage to find one in my home town. I am afraid of the job of tensioning those belts and setting everything back to its position…

Right now I start thinking that I'd better cut that belt off the pulley - still, I was afraid I couldn't find the same size belt here.

[puff]

2dcaaa81f04a.jpg (112.95 KiB) Viewed 20864 times

не мой экземпляр, но у меня нечто подобное.

[AndreyB]

Right now I start thinking that I'd better cut that belt off the pulley - still, I was afraid I couldn't find the same size belt here.

Once you cut the old one, how would you put the new one on?

It's going to be fine... Eventually. Can you spray the whole thing with WD-40 and leave it for some time?

[puff]

once i cut the belt i would hopefully remove the main pulley. once i remove the pulley i'd have much better access to that bolt of the tensioner. it's not easy to tell right now if i could flip the bolt upside down.
the guy from au forum suggested a 1 cm longer belt that would make everythin much easier.

[puff]

although it's sunday I managed to find a working store and bought a set of impeial wrenches. removing the pulley was easy. now i have to remove the oil deflecting plate (or whatever it is) pressed onto the pulley, then undo the six nuts keeping the whole thing together, then take the measurements and order the trigger wheel.

[AndreyB]

and order the trigger wheel.

I like this part

[puff]

i guess it takes somewhat 15-20 minutes to get it cut
however, i'd have to alter my vb script and may be master my draftsight skills to make it balanced.

[puff]

okay, today I used a heat gun to remove the oil deflector. tomorrow I am buying a new caliper as I can't find my old one. the thick plate with angle marks on the pulley had a rubber bushing! almost ruined it!
the plate I have to get rid of is used as a balance weight (it even has some weight welded on). I am afraid that would cause misbalance and damage the main bearings?
I got a preliminary drawing in Draftsight - don't know how to find centroide of that figure (want to add some more holes opposite to the missed tooth + make allowance for the weight I am going to remove…

[kb1gtt]

Centroid is currently located at X=0.0118 Y=-0.1349

From here http://forums.augi.com/archive/index.php/t-5641.html I did the below, selecting things as required.

Code: Select all

: ._MAINSELECT
: pedit
EDITPOLYLINE
1 found
Entity selected is not a PolyLine.
Default: Yes
Confirm: Do you want to turn it into one?
Specify Yes or No» y
Options: Close, Decurve, Edit vertex, Fit, Join, Linegen, Spline, Undo, Width or eXit
Specify option» j
Specify entities»
20 found
Specify entities»
1 found (1 duplicate), 20 total
Specify entities»
31 found (3 duplicate), 48 total
Specify entities»
15 found (4 duplicate), 59 total
Specify entities»
41 found (11 duplicate), 89 total
Specify entities»
27 found (1 duplicate), 115 total
Specify entities»
15 found (1 duplicate), 129 total
Specify entities»
16 found (5 duplicate), 140 total
Specify entities»
139 segments added to PolyLine
Options: Decurve, Edit vertex, Fit, Join, Linegen, Open, Spline, Undo, Width or eXit
Specify option»
: ._MAINSELECT
: «Cancel»
: ._MAINSELECT
: «Cancel»
: z
ZOOM
Default: Dynamic
Options: Bounds, Center, Dynamic, Fit, Left, Previous, SElected, specify a scale factor (nX or nXP) or
Specify first corner» a
: region
Specify entities»
4 found
Specify entities»
4 found (2 duplicate), 6 total
Specify entities»
4 found (2 duplicate), 8 total
Specify entities»
8 regions created.
: massprop
GETMASSPROPERTIES
Specify region»

Area
16480.8753
Perimeter
804.9560
Centroid
X=0.0118 Y=-0.1349
Coordinate system:

Name
*WORLD*
Origin
X=0.0000 Y=0.0000 Z=0.0000
Axes:
X: (1.0000,0.0000,0.0000), Y: (0.0000,1.0000,0.0000), Z: (0.0000,0.0000,1.0000)

[puff]

see the pictures by evo828 here:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=47440
do you think I need to retain that balancing stuff?

balance.jpg (240.12 KiB) Viewed 20488 times

if so, i'll need to machine the disk…
just sent the file to the laser shop. still have some time to decide if I need to drill a hole to balance out the missing tooth, etc.
here's the final dwg:

NONAME_0.dwg 2.zip

(14.26 KiB) Downloaded 377 times

What's the way to find the hole center and dia to move centroide to the center?
Do you think it is worth the effort?

[kb1gtt]

The drawing must be in MM, as it's like 72 units in diameter, and the centroid is only off by .1, which would be around .010 inches for those that are used to ANSI measurements. I would tend to think this is not a big deal. However if laser cut, why not make the predictions perfect. I added a hole for counter balance. Then I adjusted the dia of this hole until the centroid was pretty close. See attached zip. Note the copy of your file includes a very small cut which allows the balance cut to be part of the polyline, then it can be part of the region, and massprop. Here are my notes about of how that cut diameter effected the centroid.

Dia 4.4 X= -.042 y=blah
Dia 1.0 x= .093 y=blah
Dia 1.5 X= .0084 Y=-.0955
Dia 2.0 x=.0071 y=-.081
Dia 3.0 x=.0034 y= -.0392
Dia 3.5 x=.0010 y=-.0119
Dia 3.75 x=.0003 y= .0034

I figure that once that poly line attaching cutout is removed, that will be a pinch better balanced. So once I got to that last measurement, I decided it was close enough, and then I made the file that notes "final" in the description.

I would say epoxy = yuck. I see problems with balancing and I could see the epoxy failing, then you loose your ring and loose your engine. This ='s yuck.

About that weight, I would wager a guess it has little to do with the sprocket. I don't know if it would be a significant change in balancing or not.

[puff]

the drawing is in mm. what are units?

heck!now they say they can't cut a 5mm sheet (although they claim they can do 1cm thickness!), so, this will be a sandwich of two plates:2mm +3mm ;-(

the good thing is that I realized I erred in my calculations of the mounting hole centers: I didn't subtract the hole's radius - so I had a chance to better it.

I decided not to cut any counterweight holes at this stage as I still don't know if I'd manage to fit all of them on to the engine (i mean a trigger wheel and that balancing plate)
If there's no place for the balancing plate, then I'd need to somehow find its centroid and then calculate coordinates and dia of the compensating hole for both, the tooth and the balancing plate…

I didn''t get your comment on epoxy and yuck. and I didn't get what you mean it has little to do with the sprocket.

It's a pity I had to move back from my Rover. Hope to return in August…

[puff]

if that epoxy remark was regarding the balancing weight - it is made of steel and is pressed into the rim of that plate (might be also welded).

[kb1gtt]

Correct it was from that link. I see no need for the epoxy, it will create a certain amount of unbalance and I don't see it adding a feature if it's been welded. So I see the epoxy as yuck. I just don't see a need for the epoxy.

[puff]

okay. finally my dad got the disks from the laser shop and tried them on the pulley - they fit perfectly! (I am glad to realize that all in all my hands are seemingly growing from the right place).

the second thing I realized is that I never tried it at high velocity and I didn't see the signal from the sensor on the o-scope - there's a good chance that my design won't work at high rpms..

next, i'll have a headache mounting the pulley back on the shaft and putting all the belts on their places with right tensioning.

besides, I'll probably need a couple of bolts with imperial thread to set up the sensor… yet another headache…

[puff]

argh
reading the famous site:

The most important consideration for a VR sensor is that the tooth width (not the wheel thickness, but the length of the top of tooth in the direction of travel) should be matched to the sensor tip width (not the overall all width of the sensor, just the sensing element which is usually visible at the end). The correct width will help provide a sharp zero-crossing transition, making the timing predictable.

is that really the case?
plus, just one tooth off makes ±10º

[Nobody]

If the DWG is to scale, which it has to be because it is converted to tool path for CNC cutter, then it should be fine for VR sensor provided good alignment.

[kb1gtt]

Yeah, that famous site has a number or errors or concepts that aren't really important. Fat topped square wheels do very well, and very few wheels have a tooth top that is only as wide as the sensor. As well I know several flow meters that use a VR sensor which have pointy tops on the teeth that is very sharp, so certainly well below the sensor thickness. If it's good for NIST traceable equipment, it's good enough for me. I think your wheel is fine and you won't notice any issues. I wouldn't worry about the teeth width. You'll get a good signal out of it.

[puff]

okay. going on with soldering frankenstein.
I got coolant and fuel temperature sensors with the same electric characteristics:
at -10C they should read 9.1K-9.3K
at 0C - 5.7K-5.9K
at 20C - 2.4-2.6K
at 40C - 1.1K-1.3K
at 50C - 640-675Ohm
at 60C - 500-700Ohm
at 80C - 300-400Ohm
at 100C - 150-200Ohm

what is the proper resistance in my input channels to best match these sensors?
I guess my intake air temperature sensor will be somewhat 3K at 25C - pretty close to the above…