new test mule suggestions?

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new test mule suggestions?

Post by AndreyB »

With my recent move to Jersey City all my test vehicles are gone - it was just easier to sell everything there and buy something else here.

Big question: what should I buy? The points I am considering:
- ECU location
- the size of the community
- price

I am probably looking for something I can sell easily once I am ready for a more advanced car. Also on the cheaper side of the spectrum so that I am not risking an expensive engine.

My favorite is some sort of early 90s mazda - Ford Festiva/Aspire/Escort GT, maybe an MX-5. Pros: I know these, ECU is in the cabin. Cons: these are old, I might end up spending too much on fixing them, I would not have my own garage so not much I can do myself.

Dodge Neon. Pros: there is quite a community. Cons: PCM is under the hood - that complicates wiring and troubleshooting, I would really prefer the control module in the cabin.

Early 2000s Hyundai. Pros: a cheap newer car, ECU inside the cabin. Cons: ?

1st gen Mini Cooper. Pros: all the new fancy technologies. Cons: too complicated for now. ETB, ECU under the hood.

Any ideas? I guess the main thing would be the size of a DIY community, followed by ECU location.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by AndreyB »

PS: maybe I should be asking the question differently: which community would be most interested in a new DIY ECU? Maybe the one with worst oem ECU situation? Which one would that be?
?
Maybe I should be looking for the applications where MS is not a good option? What would that be? TDI? Does TDI realistically mean VW?
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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Suggestions:

1. Miata. Huge community, relatively large installed base, decent support from Megasquirt already, fledgling ROM tuning stuffs starting to trickle into existence

2. VW gasoline. Think VR6, 20V 1.8T, pre-GDI stuff. Decent size community where at least ok drivetrains have stunted performance markets from lack of computer control due to dominance of cookie-cutter chips. Starting to be some movement on ME7 flash stuff (i.e. 2.7T, late 1.8T, etc.) but for the most part orphaned for true programmability.

3. VW diesel. TDI. Huge community, limited tools.

4. BMW 3 series. M3 is a stable in the enthusiast community. Tools available for tuning for the most part are lacking or very expensive. Very limited MegaSquirt penetration. Lots of drivebywire and other fancy stuffs. realistically, you'd be opening BMW in general as they all use similar sensors and cam/crank setups.

5. Neons have decent community, shitty tools. Worth consideration.

6. Toyota/Scion anything. Tacoma has huge following with offroaders. MR2 cult following. Also, the 2JZ is on the rise. There are literally thousands and thousands and thousands of 2JZ swaps coming over from Japan and ending up in 240SX, IS300, etc. There aren't any decent standalone solutions for these that cost less than $1500 or so. You could corner a decent chunk of market with this alone if you got something worthwhile together. AFAIK, there isn't much available in terms of ROM tuning for these which is a huge plus for what you're talking about.

7. Avoid most Ford/GM. The OEM reflash stuff is too good and too prevalent. You won't be able to get most folks to adopt.

8. I kind of like the Hyundai idea. The Genesis coupe with both the V6 and I4 engines are severely crippled in terms of aftermarket by lack of solid tuning software support. Hyundai are becoming more and more common but the enthusiast community is really stunted by lack of management options and few "fun" oriented vehicles compared to grocery getters.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by Nobody »

I would say the complete opposite, get a car with great tuning support. The best was to learn is actually tune, also with that you’ll get an idea of how to correctly control an engine. Use/tune OEM ECU then swap out to yours, then back and forth, see how they compare… Also get a GPS based box to measure performance, seat of the pants impressions can be wrong.

Stay away from anything direct injection (gas or diesel) as injector drive voltage can be 60-300+ VDC… Piezo types are usual an H-bridge drive and sometimes even variable lift/opening.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by AndreyB »

I probably would not time to run the firmware AND become a good tuner - I definitely need to partner up with someone local :( So a car with a large community but not much tuning options would help me to lure people into this.

Direct injection is pretty far right now, that's for sure.

What about 1993-1997 Subaru? This one has my favorite 64 connector :)
What about Volvo - are they Fords from the ECU standpoint? Saab?
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by blundar »

Saab have a small but loyal following. They do a lot of weird stuff. One of the few to use ion sensing in a production vehicle. Not sure how I'd feel about going after that.

Same deal with Volvo... Small but loyal. Much like Saab, extremely small group of enthusiasts doing mods that would require a standalone.

Most Subaru folk seem to gravitate to the newer figure 03ish up wrx and Sti vehicles. I don't know much about the older ones other than they're quite uncommon. Subaru's break a lot in my experience.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by Nobody »

Saab was GM, think some tuning support is available. Volvo was Ford, now owned by a Chinese conglomerate.

Subaru is known for head gasket issues, especially years you mentioned. Introduce a bunch of knock while testing and that may just be tipping point.

The reason I mentioned go after platform with great tuning support is… You will see correct/better way to do things… Including logging and getting errors, trim functions and response, closed loop operation, how cold start and warmup operates, transient behavior… Anybody who has used good tuning software will laugh at tuner studio, sorry but its eye candy with little substance.

You also get a good “base tune” or starting point for your project. Don’t underestimate required injector corrections, MAF curve, VE tables, IAT vs. advance, ECT vs. advance, cranking tables, knock sensor attack rates, sanity checks… you get the gist.

I’d bet it would knock half a year off your development time, if not more. It would also serve as a benchmark to which you may or may not want to reach.

Just my $0.02
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by AndreyB »

It looks like Honda is in the lead.
Pros: 64 pin connector, ECU in the cabin, huge community, I can go with a v6 accord if I want to make a step up.
Cons: they are pretty OK with the tools they already have, but hell - there are so many of them maybe at least some would want to try something new :)
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by abecedarian »

Any Toyota with a 20R/22RE engine: Celica, Pickup / HiLux, et cetera. Damned near bullet-proof engines that have been massaged to over 1000 HP in some racing circuits.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by kb1gtt »

Subaru's with the 2.5 DOHC in the 97 to 2002 area had head gasket problems, which seem to be fixed with a performance head gasket instead of the OEM head gasket. Other than that they are a very solid engine, especially the 2.2 and SOHC's. I find the engine bay a pain to work with as that horizontally opposed boxer engine crams stuff making it kind of hard for things like changing a spark plug or getting compression gauges on it. For a test mule, one of these subaru's might be low $ and you might not care that much about some longer term overheating.

I believe Honda's hold their value, so you might have trouble getting a good one for low $. Those Vtech's have some interesting things as they change the CAM when above a certain RPM to get better HP at higher RPM.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by AndreyB »

Yep, I've read 2.2 Subaru was good and 2.5 was pain in the aaa.

Another idea I had was to buy an automatic, not manual.
1) I will have a chance to play with TCM if I want to
2) in case of honda, it would probably be easier to buy an automatic - all the manuals are being hunted by the racers.

Is there any connectivity between Honda ECU and Honda TCM? I would assume TCM needs some inputs, is it getting it from the ECU or right from the sensors?
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by Nobody »

TCM these days or for last 10 or so years is CAN bus with proprietary PIDs (parameter ID). Some car models have a PCM (power control module) that is ECM + TCM, this is prevalent on 4 speed automatics.

Be careful of driving transmission directly on new-ish models, not allot of documentation and those that have it, keep it to themselves.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by AndreyB »

Right, that's definitely a can of warms. I am pretty sure 1990s Honda had separate modules and probably not CAN.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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Perhaps you can pick up on of these 1kHP Honda van's :)

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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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Something is wrong with this van - maybe seized rear brakes? So much tire smoke in vein.

:ugeek:
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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Just realized that newer cars have integrated ECU/TCM units. I guess a 1998+ Honda V6 VTEC is not an option - I really do not need to add the TCM into all the mess now. See also http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=620
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by blundar »

i don't know that much about Honda V6. They're not very popular with the enthusiast community, at least not until later engines.

92-98 have separate TCM for integra, Accord, Prelude
92-00 Civic (simpler trans) are integrated into ECM.
01+ pretty sure all the TCMs are integrated onto the ECM.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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If you go with a Honda, stick to manual trans. IMO.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by Nobody »

blundar wrote:If you go with a Honda, stick to manual trans. IMO.
Yup I agree, get an engine to run first before tackling auto trans... They are really easy to cook if you don't know what you are doing.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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I hate choosing :( I tend to over-think stuff which is really not worth over-thinking. I've missed a $800 Kia with 52K miles :(

In the $1000 budget, it's either an Accord with a 2.2 VTEC and ugly body, or an Escort GT with too many miles - this car I know well, or a Hyundai which would be only 10-12 years old.

Hate choice.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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kb1gtt wrote:I believe Honda's hold their value, so you might have trouble getting a good one for low $.
I've learned that the hard way :(
russian wrote:Another idea I had was to buy an automatic, not manual.
This was a stupid idea. I know too little about all this, I need the simplest possible setup. Has to me manual next time.

I am again shopping for a vehicle, with a different approach now. rusEfi is still so raw it does not yet matter what engine to run, all I need now is a reliable platform so that I can focus on rusEfi and not of chasing what's wrong with the car. My only requirements are:
a) manual
b) ECU inside the cabin. not under the hood

I probably need a car with less then 100K miles on it, obviously miles do not matter for a person who knows what he is doing but I am not that person :(

Looks like the plan is a FWD Hyundai for about $3000 right now.
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by puff »

get a rover! :D
the older the car is, the cheaper. may be an old mustang?
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by DaWaN »

Does rusefi have an IRC channel ?

If you plan on spending 3000$ you can buy something nice instead of an abused Honda Accord.
Go by any means with a manual transmission, this will simplify things greatly.
I also think you should stick to a 4 banger.
Any >2000's Japanese 4 bangers are poorly supported by the aftermarket scene. Mostly because ECU's are more and more tightly integrated into the vehicle electronics.
I think any >2000 Honda needs CAN for the instrument cluster to operate. I think the same applies to >2000 Toyota's.
Still I think 3000$ can buy you a Honda K-series engine or a Toyota 1ZZ-FE engine which are both interesting engines to control because of the VTC / VVTi.
Anything after 2000 may also have DBW throttles..
Any of the >2000 GM 4 bangers might also have DBW, but they might be nice test platform.. Those GM 4 bangers can have some potential, I have seen turbo/supercharged GM 4 bangers performing very well :)

European car might also be an option, but I am not sure how cheap and easy to maintain they are in the USA.
Getting parts for BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi might be expensive..
Something like a VW 1.8T might also be a nice base, but I am not sure about the ECU location and constraints (like CAN, immobilizer and such).
I think any BMW newer than E46 has a tightly integrated ECU requiring CAN (I may be wrong here though..)
Mercedes / Audi are not my expertise, but anything more complicated that 4 banger seems wrong to me as test vehicle...
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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VW and BMW love to put the ECU under the hood - closer to windshield wiper mechanisms.

Today we've checked a manual Elantra with 84K miles on it which would need a clutch soon - that was $2.5K, and a $1.5K Accent where the seller did not have the keys on him or so he said - that guy was plain crazy. At this point I am probably not looking for an interesting engine - realistically I need something cheap I can abuse and then get rid of. Something interesting would be next test vehicle, for now I need a kamikaze vehicle. It's more a psychological issue then technical issue at this point :)
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by puff »

kamikaze should be cheap! there are just two requirements: it should be efi, and it should be working. why not choosing vehicles from early/mid 90s? ford? daihatsu? lancia? :-)
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

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puff wrote:kamikaze should be cheap! there are just two requirements: it should be efi, and it should be working. why not choosing vehicles from early/mid 90s? ford? daihatsu? lancia? :-)
it should have the engine in good or great shape, which usually is not the case with 90s vehicles - on average these would have more then 150 000 miles on them. A recently replaced clutch might be also great, but I am probably dreaming :(

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/i/autos
http://newyork.craigslist.org/i/autos
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Re: new test mule suggestions?

Post by puff »

not that many cheap cars... hm. bmw 7th series with missfires for 1200? :-)
anyway, any car could be ruined easily, you have to be skilled and experienced enough not to waste money. sometimes problems can be fixed easily, sometimes vice versa, a seemingly sheer triffle could turn into a huge problem. before purchasing it's worthy cheking the difficultyness of basic repairs - transmission, cooling, fuelpump... i feel silly :-)
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