CBR600RR Engine

[sargantana]

Hello again,
I got the MRE to "work" and read signals on our CBR600RR from 2007. We get some spits and sputters but the engine doesn't really crank. Any input or ideas what is missing or off?
I know the fuel injection is recommended to be simultaneous, but I changed it to sequential, our 210cc injectors push a lot of fuel and the simultaneous setting drowned our spark plugs in way too much fuel.
I uploaded the tune that we are using to rusefi online. I dont understand why I cant attach the link here. When I upload the msq it tells me it already exists under the ID 2740 but the link doenst show...`?
Question or doubts I cant really wrap my head around. A friend of mine recommended a injector setting of 0.9ms and ignition 5ms. We currently have 6.18ms for Injection, which i understand comes from the 9mg setting for the injectors in TS.
Also is it normal for the park to be so inconsistent? Most cycles are 6ms but some reach 9ms.
To my uneducated eye everything here seems to check out but the engine wont run...
Here is a engine sniffer pic:

[AndreyB]

Have you attempted starting on starting fluid to confirm everything else?

Timing is way more important. I see that you have not touched Trigger Angle Advance which makes me assume that you did not use a timing light to confirm timing? Are there any tunes with similar honda engines running rusEFI what did they use for Trigger Angle Advance? Once I know a rough number
I can add into into the source code - but at the moment it's on you.

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/commit/cf7642b7379e502ddcbf558ebf9e7480524ead15

image.png (7.19 KiB) Viewed 24464 times

[sargantana]

Hello, Thanks for the quick reply.
I havent tried starter fluid yet. Unfortunately I dont have a timing light. AFAIK the advance for the CBR600RR should be somewhere between 12 and 14 deg, at least these are the values i got from my research for this engine (The most frequent where 12, 13.5 and 14 deg). Unfortunately couldnt find a similar tune to base this of. So i assume I should adjust the advance to 13deg and try again? I dont have access to the shop the engine is located it in before monday, So i would like to get as much input as possible until then, maybe a forum member can shed some light in this. I know there is a thread with a running CBR600RR somewhere here that I stumbled upon a while ago.

[sargantana]

Hello again...
So I got a timing gun. I got 470 of trigger advance. Then I started cranking and got some spits and sputters, but after two or three tries nothing again. I am pretty sure I drowned the engine because our pressure regulator gauge is not trustworthy. We use a athmo referenced fuel rail. After changing the pressure regulator and reading 2 bars and adjusting to 3.2 bars (as the injectors require) I tried to crank again but nothing. I started TunerStudio and I don't get any RPMs. Which is weird because the engine sniffer reads the VR sensor for the crank correctly. I don't get any injection or ignition events on the engine sniffer tho. I am really at the end of my whits here...
I got some error messages in the console telling that TPS1Primary too low, which is very weird to me as the Throttle Body never caused any issues. I run the auto calibration again for it and with manual control everything seems to work perfectly (the ETB). I cannot really reproduce the TPS1 Primary too low error consistently.... I don't know whats going on, I really want this engine to run and we need it for an event in a week.
Any Input?
I measured the Sensor Voltage while cranking and its constant 4v96, I was expecting it to drop and thus giving and error reading but its stable as the TLE8888 is supposed to do.

I suppose this TPS1 error is preventing the MRE from cranking as in reading RPM and injecting and igniting? What I dont understand is how this happend all of a sudden as on Friday it was all fine...

Here is the tune:
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=1499

[AndreyB]

I don't get any RPMs. Which is weird because the engine sniffer reads the VR sensor for the crank correctly.

Please link your tune for me to see trigger sync details. Any chance your VR sensor wires are flipped?

[sargantana]

I linked the tune in the first post.
No, I got RPMs the other day and didnt change anything inbetween besides charging the battery. The engine sniffer marks the bars and reads it correctly like the other day...
I cant really wrap my head around the issue here... How can it be that all of a sudden I dont even get RPM?

[AndreyB]

My mistake. I mean current _log_ not tune.

[AndreyB]

No, I got RPMs the other day and didn't change anything in between besides charging the battery. How can it be that all of a sudden I don't even get RPM?

Maybe you were right at the edge of expected trigger parameters and with fresh battery things have changed just a bit to pass the threshold.

We will definitely figure the RPM out just give me the logs

[sargantana]

Yes sure. Thanks for the help.
Here is the log:
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1253
In the online preview there is nothing to see. But in MegaLogViewer the trigger events are registered, at least as I see it. I tried to crank it for a few seconds. The Battery is pretty empty already from trying.

[AndreyB]

Please adjust trigger gap setting in "advanced trigger" - set it like on this picture. We are getting closer!!!

image.png (46.94 KiB) Viewed 24202 times

[sargantana]

This did the trick! I now get RPM displayed. The engine sniffer also tells me its injecting fuel and igniting but I dont get any combustion nevertheless...
I tried both with 470 and 110 for the timing advance, but not a single fart yet
Mayber the battery is to dead?

[AndreyB]

Try starting fluid to work around fuel being the problem.
Now that it syncs more properly try timing light again.

In my records I found 540. By the way I've already hard-coded 470 will update once you get a better value https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/commit/6ccf1fe4266bb64db7eeb052aa073340a0706587

[sargantana]

Yes, the timing seems to be way of now with the trigger config change. I get very stable RPMs now, in contrast to inbefore. Thanks a lot for that!
Seems like 540 is to much. I got it to somewhere between 430 and 410, but ofc the battery just died. Its charging now, I will keep you posted and update once I got the proper settings, so they can be hard coded.

Thanks a lot!!

[sargantana]

Well good and bad news...
I get stable RPMs with the trigger override (it's fluctuating a bit).
But by trying to adjust the timing with the timing light I get very inconsistent readings on the mark. Maybe this be another sync issue?
Before all of a sudden the RPMs stopped marking I got the mark always on the same spot. Now it's jumping +/-30 to 60 degrees between rotations. I get somewhat of combustion but it's in the intake so basically a stroke off.
Any idea on what could cause this? I also noted that while adjusting the timing in the ignition window the change is minimal. Should I adjust it in the trigger settings and in ignition the same time? My thought was when using static timing this value would basically override the trigger settings.

[AndreyB]

Is that while ignition is on or off? I.e. random combustion jerking?

An engine would start even if it's way off, you might be overthinking it.

[sargantana]

Well the Ignition is on so it triggers the timing light. I disabled the injection tho to prevent random combustion jitter. What is weird is that, under the same setup, with no trigger override I got consistant marking.
I know the engine should start anyways etc, thats the point. Im getting a lot of headaches here because it just doesnt want to crank and i have been on it for almost 2 weeks by now...
I cant get it to crank for the sake of it, I played a bit with the timings but without any luck

[AndreyB]

All the answers are in the logs. Do I have log files of lengthy cranking attempts?

[sargantana]

Thank you a lot. The battery obviously is empty again as I tried some cranking...
I suppose the last one doesnt provide to much info in this regard...? Is there anything special i should take into account while logging? I am new to all this.
Battery is charging, I will provide a detailed log with a long cranking attempt as soon as I have it full again. As I am in Europe, timewise this will propably be late at night or early (arround 6am EDT).
Thank you very much in advance for all the support, I greatly appreciate it!!

[sargantana]

Hello again;

https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1254

I created a log with 3 long crank attempts. I hope this gives some insight in what I am missing...
Thank you very much for any input! Awesome help here, I am very glad.

[AndreyB]

Engine phase looks great, looks like you have trigger syncronization

How did you get to such low cranking base fuel value? please try 8 10 12 16.

image.png (65.85 KiB) Viewed 24061 times

[sargantana]

I calculated 9mg based on the proposed formula in TS. I reduced it to 6mg because the spark plugs where fooling and I added some brake cleaner to start. Thanks for the feedback, I will try the proposed value, in increasing order. The sequential injection for cranking should be fine I guess.

[sargantana]

So I tried the proposed values for cranking fuel and got spits and sputters in all cylinders for 16mg. Everything below seems to be not enough. 18mg and 20mg seems to be too much, at least I don't get remotely the same amount of sputters than with 16mg. I will charge the battery again and update.
Whar is weird to me is tahr with the 380° timing advance I now get was better results than the 470° from the other day even though the symptoms (combustion in all cylinders but not getting started) where the same.

[sargantana]

Okay so still no real advance in this...
The engine combusts but like very late. I made a video and log to document the behaviour. The exhaust is very scuffed and doesnt really seal, as you will see in the video. I tried with the proposed values and 16mg and 18mg and get fat farts.
The log of cranking is here:
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1255
Maybe this helps somewhat. I turned of the Main Realy in the last seconds so if the log shows battery failure etc
The video is here:
https://youtube.com/shorts/CKGTge-DOwM?feature=share4

I really hope I can get this to work, its soooo close!!

[sargantana]

I am pretty sure its still a timing issue. NGL, I dont really know too much of what I am doing here, but I am learning a lot.
I got some farts with the 380deg timing advance.
I have a few questions tho; in regard of the engine snyc; The CBR600RR has a three finger trigger shape. The timing asks for the offset for the first trigger event. I do not really comprehend what this refers to. According to the documentation under
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/All-Supported-Triggers#honda
the TDC for Cyc1 is on the "single tooth" of the Y-Shaped wheel.
So I would expect this is the synch point that rusEFI uses.
For using the timing light, I have two marks on the CBR600RR


According to the manual when the TI line, marked in the picture below with a red B aligns with the 2 o'clock mark (green 1 in the picture below), cyc1 is at TDC. So to my understanding I have to use the timing light so that these two aligns when it triggers (due to the spark plug triggering the timing light).
When I do this I get 450deg. With this setting I dont get any combustion tho. I did some try and error somewhat incrementing the angle from 0 to 720 and got big farts at 380, which is also shown in the shared video from my last post.




I dont know If I am too dumb to use the timing light properly, or I am mising something crucial here, but I am really at the end of my whits...

Any Input and feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Cant wait to write a proper summary of my journey for any future rusEFI user to save them my struggles as I really enjoy this project and would like to contribute my insights.

[sargantana]

So I played bit with the timing etc but I still cant get it to crank...
Any help would be greatly appreciated, I am kind of loosing my marbles right now. I need this engine running and mounted by monday, as much as I would love to use rusEFI I feel like I have to backroll to the stock HRC one... which would be a real shame as I was really looking forward to this.
Any input on this? I appreciate every help I can get.
Thank you all a lot!!

[AndreyB]

Engine needs compression, fuel and spark.

Let's assume that you cannot change compression.
Let's note that you seem to be ignoring starting fuel suggestion, obviously I could be very wrong.
Your log files seem to show reliable synchronization.

With starting fluid and reliable cranking open questions are
* does it produces spark at all
* does it spark in right order
* does it spark at right angle

Try going randomly in 25 degree steps. Try "wasted spark, two wire" mode to facilitate your search. You need two wire mode to spark all four coils.

[sargantana]

Thank you for the input. I did not ignore starting fuel suggestion, I tried the proposed values and achieved somewhat of combusiton with 16mg, which is what I am using now.

With starting fluid and reliable cranking open questions are
* does it produces spark at all
Yes, otherwise no combustion would occur, to my knowledge. See the posted youtube link, I get flames in all cylinders.

* does it spark in right order
Yes, its 1243 for the CBR600RR, I confirmed this by looking at the camshafts.
BTW; in the CBR config in the firmware its default listed as 1342.
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/blob/master/firmware/config/engines/honda_600.cpp

* does it spark at right angle
Thats the point. I dont think it does. And I may be to stupid to understand why or how.

I opened the camshaft cover:

https://ibb.co/kXGN1p4

This is TDC for CYC1, according to the timing mark on the crankshaft, which to me also checks out looking at the cams. Left is exhaust, right is intake.
What I dont understand is how to set the angle in function of this. Using the timing light with 0deg Crank advance, I get 180 / 540 for the angle, as in when the timing light triggers for cyc1 ignition, the marks line up to indicate TDC for cyc1.
Which seems to check out with the config in your records (rather 540 than 180). Nevertheless I don't get anything from the engine with this setting.

To me the camshaft angle between the sensor (scratches on the engine case, about the 8 o'clock position), this angle between the single tooth, marked in the CBR config as TDC, and the camshaft sensor is approx 70deg. So shouldn't the trigger angle advance be 140deg accordingly? Or am I completely missing the point here?
You say the logs state reliable synchronization, could you shed some light into this?

I tried increments of 20deg yesterday for all angles from 0 to 720 but couldn't get it cranking, and weirdly only spitting flames at 380deg.
I really don't know whats going on, I may be getting everything wrong here as I am honestly not super familiar with the whole topic.

[mtmotorsport]

Have you tired this in two wire wasted spark mode?

Remember, cylinder 1 is the left side of the bike while sitting on it. So this is furthest from the timing chain.

[sargantana]

I was iterating through it but the battery just died again...
I set it in two wire wasted spark mode yes. Didnt get through all the angles yet tho.
Yes, thank you for reminding me of cyclinder 1, as its different to what I know. But yes I got Ignition1 and Injector 1 wired to the according cylinder correctly, as in the farthest from the timing chain.
Assuming I get it to crank while iterating the angles in two wire wasted spark (which as i understand fires 1&3 and 2&4 at the same time, am I right? Do I need to change any wiring for this? Because to my understanding this is software controlled as the 4 Coils are wired individually now) what would be the next step? The angle I obtain this way, should give me the proper timing?
I am sorry if these questions seem obvious, I am new to all this and slightly sleep deprived, but I want to make sure I am not messing things up on my end - which may indeed be an option.
Thank you for the input.

[mtmotorsport]

The paired cylinders are 1&4 and 2&3, and that is the way the ECU will fire them. While firing two ignition coils at once there is no logical difference between the default 4 cylinder firing order of 1-3-4-2 and the honda 1-2-4-3.

How are you checking ignition timing? Removing the COP from the valve cover and patching in a length of spark plug wire? What are you using for an ignition module? Is it getting hot? I see you mentioned running 5ms of dwell which is more than double what the oem coils will tolerate so you may have just damaged the coils or ignition module. Check the coils for resistance specifications.

Remove all the spark plugs and disconnect the injectors. Crank the engine with only cylinder #1 ignition system connected (disconnect the other 3 coils) and with the timing light verify that the T mark and case notch line up. Once you have that trigger angle setup, don't touch it.