Cranking RPM does nothing

[Krakert]

Hey,

I've been working on the 1969 2.0 engine in the 911E for a while now, and I'm still grappling with a persistent issue: during cranking, the ECU (Proteus v.04) fails to inject fuel or ignite anything.

To cope with this, I've lowered the Cranking RPM Limit significantly (75RPM), allowing the car to start using Idle settings in conjunction with the CLT temperature multiplier. However, this makeshift solution is far from ideal and starting the car remains a nightmare.

I've meticulously checked for spark multiple times during cranking, yet there's simply no spark unless the RPM exceeds the Cranking RPM Limit. How is this even possible, and what steps can I take to rectify this perplexing problem?

[AndreyB]

Please provide a fresh rusEFI tune and a link to your log at rusEFI online.

(edited out my confusion, on second read I see that your problem is with cranking mode)

[zed65]

Something is weird with your trigger setup, you have selected 36/1 but have total count to 32?
You have CUSTOM_PRIMARY_TOO_MANY_TEETH = 9002, error
and CUSTOM_OUT_OF_ORDER_COIL = 9012.

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/blob/master/firmware/controllers/algo/obd_error_codes.h

[Krakert]

Oke Interesting, what do they mean? Does this contribute to the problem? And why does my post get deleted every time?

Im using a GS100502 trigger sensor on a standard 36/1 trigger wheel.

[AndreyB]

Oke Interesting, what do they mean? Does this contribute to the problem? And why does my post get deleted every time?

This is a rusEFI only forum. You are failing to notice removal comments and courtesy email, next violation i would have to suspend your account just because i have to preserve my efforts.

[Krakert]

Oke Interesting, what do they mean? Does this contribute to the problem? And why does my post get deleted every time?

This is a rusEFI only forum. You are failing to notice removal comments and courtesy email, next violation i would have to suspend your account just because i have to preserve my efforts.

Oke Im sorry, I haven't got any emails about this.

The trigger wheel Im using comes from this store: https://www.efignition.nl/c-3644415/triggerwheels/.
They only sell 36/1 trigger wheels, so something is wrong with the sensor and detecting the pulses.

[Krakert]

I made some logs with the high speed logger in TS:



Does this look alright?

For some reason it made some noise out the exhaust (this one time), it looks like their is something with the trigger signal, when I crank and it does nothing, in TS i have a big red error Trigger ERROR on the dashboard.

[Krakert]

Can somebody explain to me how the Cranking RPM limit works on a firmware level. I played around with this value and the ECU simulator.

When the Cranking RPM limit is set to 300 RPM. The Trigger Simulator Needs to be 300RPM and up for injectors to start doing something. Same goed with lower RPM's.

The description in TS for the Cranking RPM limit is:
This sets the RPM limit below which the ECU will use cranking fuel and ignition logic ...

But according to my testing.. the word Below is incorrect, it is more like a min RPM before the ECU does anything at all. What is going on here? Im setting this Cranking RPM limit to 75RPM make sense when compared to my testing.

[zed65]

You should not have a red error Trigger ERROR on the dashboard.
Cranking RPM is what it says: This sets the RPM limit below which the ECU will use cranking fuel and ignition logic.
And that is when to switch from:

cranking.png (32.78 KiB) Viewed 1827 times

[Krakert]

Upon examining the high-speed logger, the signal from the crank wheel appears satisfactory to me. Do you have a different perspective? Additionally, I'm puzzled as to why the injectors only become active at 300 RPM or above, given that the cranking RPM limit is set to 300 RPM. Shouldn't the injectors (and ignition) engage at a lower RPM?

I find it perplexing that this functionality isn't operating as expected. It seems like a straightforward matter, yet there's an issue in my case. Could it be a discrepancy in the tune, or perhaps an absence of certain input signals?

Upon reviewing the log, I noticed three start attempts, with the last one showing the cranking value dropping to 0 before the engine starts. This observation strikes me as unusual. Moreover, there's a full extra second delay before the engine fires up, which adds to the peculiarity.

image.png (113.16 KiB) Viewed 1809 times

[AndreyB]

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-upload-log#data-rate

Licensed TunerStudio would you give you faster data rate which is very important while troubleshooting trigger/vvt issues.

As long as we agree that quite a lot of cars are clearly cranking and starting on rusEFI we have to assume a very weird error condition.

Trigger error in the logs might be pointing as the issue. Let's forget about injectors and focus on getting trigger to decode without errors?

image.png (80.21 KiB) Viewed 1762 times

[Krakert]

I think there was some strange problem with the tune.

there are two ways to configure a 36-1
1. pick "36/1" out of the dropdown
2. pick "custom toothed wheel" and set 36 and 1

I have picked "36/1" from the dropdown but the setting for "custom toothed wheel" where 32 and 1. And for some reason it was trying to use 32-1 instead of 36-1.

Now I just selected the "custom toothed wheel" and set 36 and 1. I have some new (sort) cranking logs with the data sample rate set to max. And I don't see the CUSTOM_PRIMARY_TOO_MANY_TEETH = 9002 anymore.

CUSTOM_OUT_OF_ORDER_COIL = 9012, is still present, so maybe a coil problem too, but I think it the ECU is a bit happier now.

Screenshot 2024-02-16 at 17.06.42.png (461.48 KiB) Viewed 1695 times

Could you check out the logs?

[AndreyB]

image.png (121.12 KiB) Viewed 1663 times

I see coils and injectors firing in this log. From here you just need to make sure it's proper amount of fuel injected and proper timing.

I do not see any problems with cranking mode.

I would insist that if we continue we have a rusEFI tune at rusEFI online in the next post.

[Krakert]

It turned out to be a electrical problem. I have 3 relays in the car.
The first one begin the main relay, this supplies the proteus with the 12V needs to control highside stuff and all the other things.
Next I have a relay for the fuel pump, that uses a highside channel. And last I HAD a injector and ignition relay that supplied voltage to the injectors and the coilpack.

The main relay and fuel pump where all configured to their correct spot in TS, but the last relay was configured to Fan 1. After starting with a new project and latest firmware I noticed that I still had the problem, so I look deeper and I found out that Fan 1 was not setup, so I had no voltage on my injectors and coilpack, but when I started cranking I noticed that both Fan 1 and Fan 2 turn of while cranking.

So I simply pulled out the relay and just inserted a jumper, and it starts right up will cranking!

Stupid me, thank you guys, without you I would never noticed the problem with the trigger, it really helped it getting the car to run smooth.

[AndreyB]

Glad to help! Appreciate the follow-up.