Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

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kneelo
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Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

So my engine is running, but not well and i have an issue where the engine loses sync at at revs and shuts down. When it cuts out I'm pretty sure the ECU thinks the crank is a full revolution off its actual position as it continues to fire the ignition and injectors just on the wrong cycle. Generally the only way to correct it is to stop the engine spinning and restart with the starter, although a few times i was able to dip the clutch and get it to relight.

The engine is a GM high feature quad cam 3.6l V6 in a 2006 Holden VE commodore. It has a 60-2 VR crank sensor and bosch quickstart wheels on the intake cams.

Things I have tried:
-Swapped the VR wires. The waveform doesnt look right but with the wires swapped the missing tooth is split in half so it better than that.
-Reran the VR sensor wiring away from everything noisy, no effect
-Scoped the vr inputs...looked pretty clean
-Tried a 1k and 10k resistor between the VR lines, reckon it probably ran worse!
-Turned on cam sensor filtering and the cut out went from 3.5k to around 5k, win of sorts
-Tried VVT angles other than 0 in the vvt table, maybe ran worse

None of the things fixed the issues but playing with some of the cams setting changed how it behaved. This has me thinking its related to the cam settings although looking at the high speed logger the VR sensor is quite definitely dropping teeth on the crank. I have trawled the wiki and forum and my issue seems like it could be related to someone elses issue related to PWM loading the processor and causing it to miss teeth.

I didn't get many good logs as i was busy randomly changing things so any suggestions on what to check or record would be appreciated. I tried to get some engine sniffer grabs in the console but its doesnt seem to be working properly for me. Not sure if its because I dont know how to use it properly or if thats also related to my issue.

Failing any better suggestions im going to try the following tomorrow:

1. From the trigger diagrams online it seems like the cam trigger edge should be the falling edge so I will change this.

2. Disconnect and disable the VVT solenoids. The vvt angle is constantly counting up so I think perhaps i have the cam sensor offset being wrong is causing the ECU is constantly trying reach a value that is changing and this is causing staring behaviour.

3. Reroute the cam sensor wires away from everything

Thanks in advance!
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AndreyB
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by AndreyB »

Tune and log. Online.

https://rusefi.com/online
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by AndreyB »

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mck1117
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

kneelo wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:17 pm
When it cuts out I'm pretty sure the ECU thinks the crank is a full revolution off its actual position as it continues to fire the ignition and injectors just on the wrong cycle.
can you try it on wasted spark?
kneelo wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:17 pm
-Swapped the VR wires. The waveform doesnt look right but with the wires swapped the missing tooth is split in half so it better than that.
have you followed the trigger config guide? https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Trigger-Configuration-Guide
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

Went through the trigger setup again but still not looking like it should. I think I had it the same previously but had changed it in my effort to try different things.
fixed trigger.JPG
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tune file
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=959

log with individual spark
[*]https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=752

log with wasted spark. not running very well, seems like its missing
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=753
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kneelo
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

Still starting to lose teeth from 2.5k rpm then going batshit at 5k. With wasted spark on it recovers after the revs drop again but runs poorly after that.

This is 2.5k RPM.
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kneelo
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

Something else I probably should mention is that this particular engine was originally running a hall effect crank sensor. It is very close to the exhaust so broke when I was taking it out so I ended up replacing it with a VR sensor from an earlier model spare engine I have. I assumed that trigger wheels on the crank are the same but now that I think about it the older engine had a keyed snout on the front of the crank so quite possibly the trigger wheels are different too.

This is probably an opportune time to go back to the hall effect sensor. Would this still be connected to the max9924 chip of is is best to use a digital input?
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by Simon@FutureProof »

The trigger will work fine with a VR but the wiring may not be correctly shielded against noise.

What did you use to wire sensor? Strictly it needs to be decent shielded twin core.

Number one cause of poor crank signal on stand alone ECUs with VR is noise through poorly shielded wiring.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

How big are the trigger wheel teeth, and what did the sensor come from? Roughly same size teeth on the vehicle the sensor came from and your trigger wheel? If not, that can cause problems with the signal from the sensor being poorly matched to the wheel.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by puff »

size and orientation of the sensor's core does matter! using a scope to check the signal consistency might also be a good idea..
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kneelo
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

i have used the shielded twin core from the factory harness although i did have to join a couple of pieces. Will 0.5mm2 screened industrial 'dekoron' cable work ok? it the only stuff i think i can find locally at short notice. I think it only has a foil screen though.

The vr sensor is from a vz commodore and the engine im running is from a ve commodore. They are consecutive models but between them the model of bosch ecu changed, crank sensor went to a hall effect and most of the connectors changed. never looked at the trigger wheels closely. The photo in the first post is the vz vr trigger.

I did scope it and it seemed to be ok but i really dont
know how to use the scope properly so could have missed something.

Another thing i noticed but didnt pay much attention to is that at the same time the crank trigger starts having issues it also started randomly reading vehicle speed on the tuner studio dashboard. the speed sensor is a wheel sensor connected on vr2. Could this issue be general noise being introduced into the ecu? Maybe through other io wiring that is near the ignition coils or if i have grounded it wrongly. Everything is grounded to a stud on the body near the ecu. Will noise be evident on the 5v supplies?
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kneelo
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

I replaced the VR crank sensor with the original hall effect sensor and connected it to one of the digital inputs. I also seperated the cam sensor wiring from the rest of the harness but am still having the same issues with it missing crank teeth above 2.5k RPM. It doesn't appear the problem is related to the sensors themselves.

I ran out of time to scope the 12v and 5v supplies for noise but that is the next step. Is checking the main 12v input, sensor gnd and each of the 5v sensor supplies sufficient or should I also open the case and look at the onboard 5v and 3.3 rails?

If these look clean the only thing I'm left with is a possible configuration or firmware issue. I don't understand how the trigger setup works and the dual quickstart wheels on the intake cams seems very complex even before you try to make vvt work.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

For simplicity of configuration, try turning off all cam sensing stuff first. Disable the cam inputs, set the cam modes to NONE. Set ignition to wasted spark, it should run totally fine that way.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

mck1117 wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:40 pm
For simplicity of configuration, try turning off all cam sensing stuff first. Disable the cam inputs, set the cam modes to NONE. Set ignition to wasted spark, it should run totally fine that way.
That fixed most of the issue. Its still having issues above above 5500 but is clean below that which is a big improvement.

So I'm assuming this is a trigger decoding issue in the firmware then?

This is grab from the log free revving to cause an issue
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

can you share that mlg and a TS trigger log of it happening?
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by AndreyB »

kneelo wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:54 am
So I'm assuming this is a trigger decoding issue in the firmware then?
I am just a little offended by your assumption. We know for sure that we handle high RPM at 60/2 trigger just fine if we get a happy signal.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:14 pm
kneelo wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:54 am
So I'm assuming this is a trigger decoding issue in the firmware then?
I am just a little offended by your assumption. We know for sure that we handle high RPM at 60/2 trigger just fine if we get a happy signal.
I don't mean this as an accusation or a criticism of what you have created... just trying to interpret what the results mean. I would think you would actually want as many people as possible reporting issues to make the software a robust as possible.

My reasoning that its firmware related is that I have 2 data points where the trigger input arrangment hasnt changed but where changing settings that should be unrelated has changed the crank trigger input seen by the ecu.

In my reading on the forum I came across details of someone else who was having issues they thought might be related to too many PWM outputs messing up reading trigger events. I am no expert but assume that both of these tasks use interrupts to control timing so it sounds plausible.

I am still running PWM outputs for the ETB and smart alt control so perhaps this is the difference between others who have successfully run the 60/2 trigger at high speed.... or maybe i have something else set wrong.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

Files links below. I didn't save the trigger log but will grab it in the next couple of days.

tune file
https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=978
mlg file
https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=769
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by AndreyB »

kneelo wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:44 am
I am no expert but assume that both of these tasks use interrupts to control timing so it sounds plausible.
Everything is plausible but please do not make random guesses. Your random guess becomes a "I saw someone saying interrupts are stressed on rusEFI" for the next person looking to make the next random guess. The part about non-OEM trigger wiring worries me but to some extent I am also guessing.

Thank you for reporting the issue and providing sweet test data!

I see that you are already using "Enable noise filtering" which was supposed to help at least with some physical noise.

This high RPM high tooth count use-case is really tricky - as of today we have pretty limited toolset, as of today we cannot log at this rate with rusEFI means. Do you have a $9 or else logic analyzer to record the digital signal between VR conditioner and MCU? That would be the most proper next step for objective investigation.

As a work around for probably both performance and noise track would you consider going with a lower tooth wheel? But that's a workaround not a proper fix :(
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:55 pm
I see that you are already using "Enable noise filtering" which was supposed to help at least with some physical noise.
I don't see that? Leave it off. Don't need it.

Turn off "Print verbose trigger sync to console", though. I bet $1 that's the issue.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by AndreyB »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:28 pm
I don't see that? Leave it off. Don't need it.

Turn off "Print verbose trigger sync to console", though. I bet $1 that's the issue.
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/4113 for verbose

if that does not help, try enabling noise filtering :)
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

The crank input is currently from the factory hall effect sensor connected on the digital 3 input. The trigger wheel is located on the crank between the 4th and 5th main bearings. Modifying it to remove teeth would be messy and difficult.

I will try the suggestions over the weekend and let you know how i go.

I'm normally a big fan of wild speculation but im going to use this opportunity to dig into the firmware. No promises that ill ever be any help but im very interested to understand how it currently works.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by AndreyB »

kneelo wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:29 am
The trigger wheel is located on the crank between the 4th and 5th main bearings. Modifying it to remove teeth would be messy and difficult.
Wow
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 pm
kneelo wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:29 am
The trigger wheel is located on the crank between the 4th and 5th main bearings. Modifying it to remove teeth would be messy and difficult.
Wow
Same as an LS. My trigger wheel is pressed on to the crank, and the sensor goes thru a hole in the block behind the starter.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

Probably unsurprisingly the GM high feature V6 bottom end seems pretty similar to the ls v8s. Its got exactly the same arrangement except the sensor is on the opposite side to the starter.

The v6 even has piston oil squirters.... its just crying out of 15 lbs of boost once the ecu is sorted.
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by kneelo »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:28 pm
Turn off "Print verbose trigger sync to console", though. I bet $1 that's the issue.
I owe you a dollar. Its now smashing the limiter at 5700 with no trigger errors. ETB works quicker than i was expecting so can probably adjust that a bit higher.

Off topic but can you recommend a windows based development environment for tinkering with the firmware?
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Re: Proteus trigger problem ...HELP

Post by mck1117 »

kneelo wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:29 am
ETB works quicker than i was expecting so can probably adjust that a bit higher.
Yeah - it's just about as quick as you can get, save for a hard fuel cut. I have my ETB limiter set to start limiting near where you should shift, and hard limit between that and the "parts start falling off" speed.
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