Diesel VE pump ECU controller

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superturbocompound
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Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

hi all from North of Borneo island
been bangging my head on how to interface an ECU to a mechanical diesel fuel pump....what i want to find out is how do you interface an ignition timing table(tunerstudio) to a stepper motor motion , basically mechanical VE diesel pumps have their timing governer by spring and fuel pressure, example is like using a servo/stepper motor to turn a distributor cap to adjust timing on the fly...and using the rpm to set the timing(vis table if u get the jist).If the ECU can send a signal to an arduino or a stepper motor driver which moves/turns the stepper according to the tables value , this would be ideal.....

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AndreyB
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by AndreyB »

On the one hand, we have some flexibility - http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Flexible_Logic
So a wide range of options is available

On the other hand I am not sure what exactly you are doing. ignition timing table and a diesel? Does not diesel NOT use ignition table? Or do you mean "some table"? We do have four aux tables which could driver PWM or PID outputs.

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kb1gtt
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by kb1gtt »

I understand there are many variations in Diesel applications. Mechanical pumps often have advance, and volume controls. Some others only have advance or volume. Pretty much all of them have at least one electrical adjustment, but some simply have a go / no go solenoid. As well they generally will squirt a minimum amount of fuel, at a minimum advance. So they often mostly work even with no controls.

It sounds like in this case, there is one electronic control over a mechanical injector pump. Do you have a schematic for the injector pump? For now don't worry about how to electrically control that input, worry about what the input does. At 1kRPM and 0% load what does that input do? Then at 1kRPM and 100% load, what does that input do? Same for 4kRPM? Once you know what the input needs to do, then we can figure out how to control it. I'm sure it can physically be controlled, but I'm not sure what it would need to control.

Also what are the goals? Do you expect more HP, more torque, or some other feature? What reason do you have for trying a different control system?
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superturbocompound
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

thanks for the replies....drafting a comprehensive reply about the ve pump...so by the end of the day you all should know what is needed...
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

hi all

i have added some videos about the timing mechanism....

TIMING OPERATION....FROM 15:48 TO 16:40


TIMING CALIBRATION...7:49 tTO 8:49, TO 12:30 TO 12:45, 14:13


Another tutorial on the timing mechanism FROM 10:34 TO 11.30


Image

as u can see the timing is actuated hydraulically, if a servo/stepper could control this, then it would be ideal for better tuning....rpm signal is via a tooth VR built in to the pump....
kb1gtt wrote: At 1kRPM and 0% load what does that input do? Then at 1kRPM and 100% load, what does that input do?
base on the timing(stroke chart) load and no load does effect timing but it does effect fuel supply , the pressure in the fuel pump which governs the timing is based on rpm and the pressure regulator so at full throlltle at 1000 rpm you get max fuel but no timing change, even with full boost no change in timing...the injection duration is what controls the fuel volume but the start of the injection is where in it needs to be timed(if u get what i mean)
kb1gtt wrote:Also what are the goals? Do you expect more HP, more torque, or some other feature? What reason do you have for trying a different control system?
to be able to tune the pump more precisely, control more parameters in the fuel pump, fuel , rpm limit, closed loop tuning....MORE POWER!!!...and sell a few units to a few friends(ahem , ahem)

being in a third world country , people here tend to stay away from these new common rail engines , the way i want to to this is even with the ecu totally malfunction the engine still can opreate(analogy of the distributor cap turned by the servo/stepper, if fail no timing but engine still can run)
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by AndreyB »

superturbocompound wrote:timing is actuated hydraulically, if a servo/stepper could control this, then it would be ideal for better tuning
Do I understand it right that that's an idea for modifying of original Bosch unit which would need some control unit?
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

the idea of this is to just bolt on servo/stepper units to actuate the components in the fuel pump not changing anything IN the pump.

here are 2 examples(one with and without) external device to adjust the timing but this is only used during cold starts, so there is a possiblity to attach a electronic actuator to control the timing device...

Image

Image
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by kb1gtt »

These pumps were used allot on VW's back in the 80's which includes the first car I had which lasted more than 2 months. My first year of driving I went though 8 cars. Turns out that $50 cars just don't last very long. One had a wheel bearing that was so bad that it generated so much heat that it welded it's self solid. I did a bunch of work on a Jetta and it lasted me many years. Eventually it had more than 400kmiles on it. I sure would have wanted an extra 5HP out of that engine. OEM rounded up when they claimed 90HP. I'm sure it really only had 50HP, and I recall breaking the speed limit on some hills. That was breaking the speed limit on the minimum side.

Any how, you have the amount of fuel delivered which is typically attached to the long pedal and regulated by the meat motor. You also have an advance lever which allows retarding the timing for cold starting. This lever on VW's was attached to a cable, which you would pull it in the cabin very similar to a choke on a carburetor vehicle. As well during cold starts you had to wait for the glow plugs. This waiting depended on if you had fast or slow glow plugs. Fast ones tended to burn out quicker, and the slow ones took longer to warm up.

I think you are looking for timing control. Basically mechanically set the pump a bit advanced, such that you get more power under normal conditions. Then use electronic control to change the amount of retarding, such that you aren't too advanced and you get ignition. Are you concerned with cold starting? By doing this you may loose degrees of retarding during cold starts.

Do you have one of these in a functional vehicle? Could you adjust the pump to normal advance while the level advance lever is pulled, then go drive it and push the lever manually to adjust the timing manually. I think this would allow you to get a feel for how much power you might be able to get by this approach. I think you'll find it's minimal and perhaps not noticeable via the butt dyno. I think the key ways to get more power out of these pumps is to get more air in the cyl, and adjust the max delivered fuel. I know some folks have put on turbo's or super chargers, then adjusted the fuel.
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

kb1gtt wrote:Any how, you have the amount of fuel delivered which is typically attached to the long pedal and regulated by the meat motor. You also have an advance lever which allows retarding the timing for cold starting. This lever on VW's was attached to a cable, which you would pull it in the cabin very similar to a choke on a carburetor vehicle. As well during cold starts you had to wait for the glow plugs. This waiting depended on if you had fast or slow glow plugs. Fast ones tended to burn out quicker, and the slow ones took longer to warm up.
The kind of diesels you are talking about are indirect injection(IDI) diesel engines,which require long glow plug time,current more modern diesels are direct injection(DI) and are usually turbo'ed,glow plug time is next to none....they start almost immediately
kb1gtt wrote:I think you are looking for timing control. Basically mechanically set the pump a bit advanced, such that you get more power under normal conditions. Then use electronic control to change the amount of retarding, such that you aren't too advanced and you get ignition.
Hmmm, i need to check this out but according to the chart there is no advance during start but maximum amount of fuel is delivered...having some advance when starting a cold DI engine is going to have a really loud knocking sound...
kb1gtt wrote:Do you have one of these in a functional vehicle? Could you adjust the pump to normal advance while the level advance lever is pulled, then go drive it and push the lever manually to adjust the timing manually. I think this would allow you to get a feel for how much power you might be able to get by this approach. I think you'll find it's minimal and perhaps not noticeable via the butt dyno. I think the key ways to get more power out of these pumps is to get more air in the cyl, and adjust the max delivered fuel. I know some folks have put on turbo's or super chargers, then adjusted the fuel.
i don't have one installed in a vehicle since we don't have cold starts here,(borneo)...but i did accidentally installed the fuel pump wrongly(alot of advance) and skipped a tooth or so and the engine idled really loud but had really good response,but the idle was just too loud and i knew some was wrong so i installed it correctly and it reduced the noise put soften the response quite abit....

i went through the rusefi manual and i am lost....i could write codes on the arduino(maybe) to make it work but the tuning ability is no where near what u have...
i am just baffled how u can get your 3d tuning graph to interface with a stepper motor or servo....
superturbocompound
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

russian wrote:On the one hand, we have some flexibility - http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Flexible_Logic
So a wide range of options is available
i understand now(horay!)

FSIO = ???? flexible outputs Input Output...?
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by AndreyB »

Yes, flexible input-output.

As is, 3D map for solenoid is possible - see part about set_fsio_expression 4 "rpm map 3 fsio_table 100 /"

It would be pretty easy to make idle stepper valve run on top of FSIO expression, and that FSIO expression can be taking a value from the same map.
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by kb1gtt »

For physical motor control, you might want to consider this motor. http://www.nidec.com/en-EU/product/motor/category/A010/B020/P0000022/

It's a PWM controlled motor, which includes feedback pulses, such that you can know where you are positioned. One issue with steppers, happens when you miss a step, you do not get feedback. Do you think this motor (or similar motor) would work for you? They have many different torques, speeds, etc. I know that this motor can be connected to the STM32. As well it is very robust against some common electrical issues found with steppers.
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

the motor seems like a good choice but there must be a gearbox....with the stepper motor there is no need for a gearbox and most importantly the output shaft can easily be made to adapt to some form of actuation...

lead screw change


here is a video with a encoder on the stepper....


been busy today but i hv more questions to ask if u don't mind....
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Re: Diesel VE pump ECU controller

Post by superturbocompound »

been doing alot of reading, bouncing between arduino based ecu and rusefi... but the fact that(i just found out ) how powerful the stm32 board is....the only problem is that i find it really hard to understand the codes and how to programme it(is it c,c++?)....read abit on the forum on implementing a stepper motor...interesting. still more reading to do....
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