BMW K1100RS

Your chance to introduce yourself and to ask your first question
mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:28 pm

Hi guys! I'm working on my BMW K1100RS and alongside other plans I want to convert it to rusefi. What I have: matser's degree in electronics, motorcycle with fully serviced working engine and whole lot of ambitions. What I don't have: any knowledge about custom EFI conversions, microsoft windows, dyno.
About sensors. This engine does not have camshaft position sensor, all I've got is crankshaft sensor, air temperature sensor, coolant temperature sensor. Throttle bodies does not include idle servo, but I'm planning to order ones that include. I guess it might be good Idea to try to incorporate camshaft position sensor, it might also be a good idea to include air pressure sensor.
What else can you suggest? My main concern is tuning. I don't have access to dyno. My best idea for now is to dump fuel map from stock EFI, then I can get everything working at least as good as before and then, I can ride to to dyno to fine-tune it.

stefanst
contributor
contributor
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:24 am

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by stefanst » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:40 pm

Is that the one with the weird side-crank inline 4?

It's not necessary to add a cam-sensor. Many inline 4s run happily on just a crank sensor.

Sensors: In order to run succesful EFI, you will need some sort of sensor that tells you how much fuel is needed. I believe the K engines are all fuel injected, so there would have to be at least one additional sensor. Most likely either Mass Air Flow (MAF) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP).

What can you tell us about the ignition system? Is it two coils with wasted spark? Single coils? Distributor? Is the ignition controlled from the ECU? (I shall assume it is)

Good luck- we'll try and help as much as we can!

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 pm

You can have a good enough tune with a wideband oxygen sensor (such sensor - usually bosch - would also require it's own controller)

You can somewhat tune for power with VirtualDyno but the bigger concern is avoiding detonation. No trivial solution here, ideally there are known good maps.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:23 pm

Welcome along, and pleasure to meet you.

Have you found the wiki? If not here's a link. http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... enso_board

Am I correct that this is 4 stroke?
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:28 pm

Is that the one with the weird side-crank inline 4?
Yep, exactly. One of the best BMW-motorrad engines (ironically, based on Peugeot prototype)
I believe the K engines are all fuel injected, so there would have to be at least one additional sensor. Most likely either Mass Air Flow (MAF) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP).
Right, all K engines are fuel injected, but there is no MAP or MAF sensors. There was mechanical MAF on earlier 8-valve K100 models equipped with LE-Jetronic EFI, but since they moved to Motronic there is no more MAF or MAP sensors. Only temperature probe in airbox and coolant temperature sensor. Oh! Forgot to mention, there is throttle positions sensor!
What can you tell us about the ignition system? Is it two coils with wasted spark? Single coils? Distributor? Is the ignition controlled from the ECU? (I shall assume it is)
Two coils with wasted spark, controlled by EFI.
You can have a good enough tune with a wideband oxygen sensor (such sensor - usually bosch - would also require it's own controller)
I guess I can order this kit online
No trivial solution here, ideally there are known good maps.
My idea is to dump fuel maps from original EFI and go from there

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:35 pm

kb1gtt wrote:Welcome along, and pleasure to meet you.

Have you found the wiki? If not here's a link. http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... enso_board

Am I correct that this is 4 stroke?
Hi! Thanks!
Yep, I'm looking to this project time to time and finally decided to give it a try. I'll be using my own pcb design, since one of the reasons for this conversion is to make everything small and simple, interconnect everything with CAN/RS-something bus and get rid of tons of wires for clean and simple look. My main questions are: what sensors I will need and how to tune everything without having access to dyno. And yes, it is four stroke.
Last edited by mynameisdaniil on Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:42 pm

Speaking of detonation. I can try to use detonation sensor, I know rusefi does not support it right now, but I can work on this and contribute to the project. As far as I understand, basic knock sensor operation goes like that: once "knock level" reaches some point, retard ignition, if there is still some knock - retard more, if there is no knocking - advance ignition, still no knocking - advance even more.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:59 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote:
No trivial solution here, ideally there are known good maps.
My idea is to dump fuel maps from original EFI and go from there
Sounds like original ECU uses TPS for ignition maps and you would probably be using a fancier MAP sensor probably?

I still suggest starting with an exiting board - obviously depends if you have more time or you have more money. Once you are at a good point based on Frankenso you can make your own smaller board or improve Frankenstein.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:08 pm

russian wrote:I still suggest starting with an exiting board - obviously depends if you have more time or you have more money. Once you are at a good point based on Frankenso you can make your own smaller board or improve Frankenstein.
Ok, sounds reasonable.
russian wrote:Sounds like original ECU uses TPS for ignition maps and you would probably be using a fancier MAP sensor probably?
As far as I understand MAP used only for small corrections for air "quality"? Currently, in Motronic there is no MAP at all, and if you go to mountains you have to connect special "altitude plug" to it, so it corrects fuel map and engine continues to work normally. I mean, TPS is the main "source of truth"? Or what? That's why I'm on this forum.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:11 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote: As far as I understand MAP used only for small corrections for air "quality"? Currently, in Motronic there is no MAP at all, and if you go to mountains you have to connect special "altitude plug" to it, so it corrects fuel map and engine continues to work normally. I mean, TPS is the main "source of truth"? Or what? That's why I'm on this forum.
I think you are confusing MAP with BARO. Baro yes the minor correction for mountains.

MAP, MAF or TPS could each be the source of truth, but the current DIY standard pretty much is to use MAP since that's the best effort/outcome ratio for our purposes. See also http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... el_Control
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:55 pm

Ok. Let assume I will buy full pack bundle. What else do I need? Map sensor and wide-band lambda? Where I can buy them? What models should I buy?
Also, this page(https://www.tindie.com/products/russian ... ll-bundle/) says it doesn't support IAC stepper, while this page (http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... ent_Status) says that rusefi supports idle stepper. What to believe? And one last thing, this page(http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... or_Decoder) talks about knock sensor decoder. What knock sensor do I need? Any general-purpose one?

stefanst
contributor
contributor
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:24 am

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by stefanst » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:00 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote:[...]
As far as I understand MAP used only for small corrections for air "quality"? Currently, in Motronic there is no MAP at all, and if you go to mountains you have to connect special "altitude plug" to it, so it corrects fuel map and engine continues to work normally. I mean, TPS is the main "source of truth"? Or what? That's why I'm on this forum.
There's many ways to skin this cat. My knowledge is derived 100% from car engines so far:

In order to calculate the necessary fuel quantity you need to have information about the amount of air in the cylinders. Most common are:

1. MAF sensor: a sensor that almost directly measures the mass of air entering through the throttle-body. Depending on the type of MAF used, you may still need an air temperature sensor. Most OEM car ECUs use this.

2. Most aftermarket ECUs and quite a few OEM ones use the manifold air pressure signal and rpm to calculate the amount of air in a cylinder filling. It then calculates the amount of fuel needed based on the calculated amount of air.

3. TPS based: Here we use the position of the throttle and rpm to estimate the amount of air in a cylinder filling. The we calculate the fuel needed.

TPS based and MAP based will need to be corrected for outside barometric pressure. This is where the sensor you referred to comes into play. It measures environmental air pressure, not pressure in the intake manifold.

If you don't have that sensor, then you need to cheat and tell the engine in some other way that the outside pressure has dropped. That is probably the special "high altitude" key you're referring to.

So from what you're saying, we can assume that your fuel calculation is TPS-based. I didn't even know that the Motronic allows for that. The preferred method with rusefi is MAP-based. MAP-based works well for most engines and a MAP sensor is a fairly simple device, so usually I would suggest to use that. One area where MAP-based fuel calculation runs into trouble is with engines with "hot" intake cams. With these cams, especially at low rpms, you get a lot of the air that was sent into the cylinder sent back out- now mixed with fuel. And the pressure inside the manifold varies wildly and is no good indication of actual air used for combustion. In these cases a switch to TPS-based would be advisable.

Simple test: can you hook a vacuum gauge to your intake manifold (after the throttle body) and record the pressure at different rpms? Even just sitting, not even driving, should give us enough info.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:06 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote:Ok. Let assume I will buy full pack bundle. What else do I need? Map sensor and wide-band lambda? Where I can buy them? What models should I buy?
Also, this page(https://www.tindie.com/products/russian ... ll-bundle/) says it doesn't support IAC stepper, while this page (http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... ent_Status) says that rusefi supports idle stepper. What to believe? And one last thing, this page(http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... or_Decoder) talks about knock sensor decoder. What knock sensor do I need? Any general-purpose one?
A lot of different sensors would work. "GM 3 bar" is a popular option with forced induction crowd and it would work for you as well, http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-3-BAR-MAP-SE ... 0857685098

Innovate is a good brand of wideband sensor+controller+gauge kits http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

Frankenso board does not have stepper circuitry but rusEfi firmware supports stepper idle logic. Frankenso has a prototyping area where a little board with stepper driver could be mounted see http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... pper_motor

TunerStudio software is free but fuel auto-tune is a pay-to-use feature. You can run your own excel spreadsheet or adjust numbers manually.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:50 pm

One area where MAP-based fuel calculation runs into trouble is with engines with "hot" intake cams. With these cams, especially at low rpms, you get a lot of the air that was sent into the cylinder sent back out- now mixed with fuel. And the pressure inside the manifold varies wildly and is no good indication of actual air used for combustion. In these cases a switch to TPS-based would be advisable.
Simple test: can you hook a vacuum gauge to your intake manifold (after the throttle body) and record the pressure at different rpms? Even just sitting, not even driving, should give us enough info.
One of my next plans is to install more aggressive camshafts from newer model, I won't try MAP-sensor at all. This also explains why most BMW motorcycles (even relatively new ones) use TPS-based EFI. I'll stick with TPS too.
What kind of crankshaft sensor do I need? Right now it's two-slit barrel with two Hall sensors.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:03 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote: What kind of crankshaft sensor do I need? Right now it's two-slit barrel with two Hall sensors.
I do not understand the question. Both Hall and VR should work, so I assume existing sensors would be used? http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... re_Trigger
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:07 pm

I haven't seen this page. Thanks!
The question is will this kind of sensor work with rusefi. See, most crankshaft sensors I've seen looks like teethed wheel, while this one looks like barrel with two slits, like ignition sensor on old carburated motorcycle. I.e. aftermarket sensors look like this: Image
while original looks like this (top left corner): Image

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:21 pm

If original ECU reads it I am hoping rusEfi would read it as well?

The more sharp-toothed shape is more important for VR sensors. Hall sensors are more accepting of wider slots or wider super-tooth.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:35 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote:I'll be using my own pcb design,
Cool to hear. I have a 72 perhaps a 73 JAWA Californian, which I dream of making EFI. I've been tempted to spin a small 2 cyl water proof, etc board. Are you willing to make your board open source? If so I can offer to help with the layout and design. I have some thoughts on how to make such a board.

I also dream of using a remote bus for external devices. However I'm also a one manageable step at a time kind of guy.

About Hall, I think that's your better option especially if you have OEM sensors and locations. What is your max expected RPM?
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:16 pm

If original ECU reads it I am hoping rusEfi would read it as well?
Ok, let's put it this way. How rusefi designed to work with crankshaft position sensor? For instance, in case of toothed wheel we can detect gap between teeths and go from there, since we know how many teeths we have we can count pulses and derive angular position and RPMs. Do I need toothed wheel? Or, somehow, I can use my current setup? Most aftermarket EFIs use toothed wheel design for some reason.
And what about knock sensor?
I'm trying to get complete list of everything I need to buy/produce/modify in order to make this conversion.
Are you willing to make your board open source?
Once I make engine working with frankenboard. But, honestly, I don't see any problems there, I mean, it's just controller with bunch of transistors and op-amps.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:23 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote:How rusefi designed to work with crankshaft position sensor? For instance, in case of toothed wheel we can detect gap between teeths and go from there, since we know how many teeths we have we can count pulses and derive angular position and RPMs.
Now I see what you mean - you are asking about your custom trigger shape signal. We will add your shape into the list of known shapes

See http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... re:Trigger
See http://rusefi.com/docs/html/
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:36 pm

Thank you!
One last question before I go to sleep. Are knock sensors supported? And what types of knock sensors supported?

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:37 pm

mynameisdaniil wrote:Are knock sensors supported? And what types of knock sensors supported?
Yes and no. Some very non-definitive tests were successful but I am not completely satisfied with the results. It's a long story, need someone to look into this.

I do not know if there are types of knock sensors, aren't they all the same?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:04 am

I do not know if there are types of knock sensors, aren't they all the same?
don't know either. As I said in my first post, engine electronics isn't my area of expertise. Is it really that necessary? My current engine happily works without it. Is there is a way to connect it to rusefi?
I decided to use alpha-n mode. Current list of what I have and what I will need, please correct me if I'm wrong: What else do I need? What's wrong in my list?

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:09 am

ignition coils - there are two ways this could be set in OEM: igniter outside of ECU (igniter could be build into coil or igniter could be sitting between ECU and coil), or igniter inside ECU.

rusEfi kind of has an option to have igniters on the prototyping area, you just need to know if you need them or if your coils or your harness have igniters somewhere. Another term for this "logic level coil control"

You probably do not need baro sensor, currently zero support in rusEfi firmware.

Knock sensor is also towards the bottom of your priority list.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:10 am

mynameisdaniil wrote: https://www.tindie.com/products/russian ... nnector-2/ (what's the difference between connector 2 and 3?)
not sure what is the question regarding #2 and #3?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:57 pm

rusEfi kind of has an option to have igniters on the prototyping area, you just need to know if you need them or if your coils or your harness have igniters somewhere. Another term for this "logic level coil control"
It's just dumb regular coils, so I need driver on board (do I have to install it myself, or how do i get it?). I will also need starter relay output (to disable starter after engine been started) and tachometer output.
not sure what is the question regarding #2 and #3?
There are two identical items with URL ending "2" and "3":
https://www.tindie.com/products/russian ... nnector-2/
https://www.tindie.com/products/russian ... nnector-3/

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:46 pm

I can add two little http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=286 boards into your order - there is a picture how you install these in prototyping area.

No idea why #2 #3 in URL, some revisions probably.

We have extra i-o on the board those are used for mail relay fuel pump relay tach output etc. Never experienced a starter relay but hopefully it's doable.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Rhinoman
contributor
contributor
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:14 pm
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by Rhinoman » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:07 pm

russian wrote: I do not know if there are types of knock sensors, aren't they all the same?
Some early knock sensors were 'narrow band' - they generated an output signal only when knock was detected at a certain frequency. AFAIK all modern sensors are wideband - they have a flat* output response from around 20Hz to 20kHz with the first resonant peak at 25kHz or higher.
*Flat output response means within 3db which can mean a big difference in the voltage generated!

mynameisdaniil
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:44 pm

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by mynameisdaniil » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:43 pm

@russian will rusefi work with 16*4 display?
Also, it looks like I can get away with much smaller connector: 2 pins for power + 2 for hall input + 2 for TPS & idle switch input + 2 for ignition coils output + 2 for injector output + 1 radiator fan output + 1 fuel pump output + 4 for idle stepper output +1 starter disable output + 1 tacho output = 18 in total and I have 10 spare connections for the future

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9683
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: BMW K1100RS

Post by russian » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:57 pm

Do not know about 16x4, but i kind of plan to fix it for 16x2. If you can help it would be great :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Post Reply