(Bio)Diesel Powered

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:59 pm

Cleaned up the second (downstairs) kitchen - somewhat, which is also now the only entrance since I removed the upper entrance front door (still no permits, I may need an engineer's stamp for seismic retrofit). I moved my chemistry stuff (some of it) to where I was housing some of the construction stuff (my "frog room"), and moved some of the construction stuff to the kitchen. I did this so I could easily bring in/out my bicycle for school.

Well, there appeared to be some spare space, so in with the engine. Didn't want to get any of this Seattle rain that is about to start up.. and so it is out of the direct entrance of the front door, really no use beyond that at the moment.. large chance something will leak, too...
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:53 pm

Should I be concerned you put your engine in a pine box?
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:57 pm

that was the shipping pallet.. getting it off of it will require a lift + engine stand.. which are on the list

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:06 am

Does the dog have a name? I'm tempted to say "hello spot".
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:18 am

Silhouette, or Silly for short.

.. just recently 18mo, and finally got "fixed" on Monday

At least you didnt call him 'Pongo'

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:38 am

The entire "see spot run" thing came to mind when I saw your spotted dog.

Any how, give Silhouette a pet from me. Hmmm, I suspect Silhouette would enjoy a good scratch under the chin.

Keep us posted about the progress. I forget if you had injectors clicking or not. I seem to recall you were close to getting fuel pressure to work with.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:44 pm

No injectors clicking just yet.. working towards the pressure regulation

School starts on Monday..

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:13 am

First week of school out of the way, already 3 projects completed.. I like tradeschools :)

I worked a lil on the 'engine' over the weekend, finally got a look into the code base, specifically the RPM calculator and the events. I need to adopt a similar rpm/crank angle setup (I should just get a frankenso already....) for my flow bench.

I had two issues with the uC.. first was I was using a port that defaults to (but I reconfig's it during runtime) to NMI, non-maskable interrupt, and if held low during a power-on(debug reset)then it'll go through a different interrupt vector/whatnot and not use the interrupts I setup.. using a different pin fixed that issue..
the next was printf seemed to be trashing some memory I malloc'd... puts resolved some of that.. I don't really like this dev board because of the single threaded and so forth, so anytime I send debug info (through the usb debug port it sets up) I miss incoming data..

Not sure if I am on the fence of getting the full frankenso versus a kit to solder myself - or what exactly.. likely just procrastinating.

Got rained on during the bicycle ride home from school today, so I am certainly more motivated to work on this more..

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:42 am

I certainly recommend the assembled. You'll spend almost as much money if you get the parts yourself, as well you'll spend hours soldering it. You basically won't save any money and you'll wast allot of time if you get the kit.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:45 pm

k.. finally ordered a frankenso

got tired of dealing with this embedded board as a workaround, especially if being unused in the end.

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:47 am

Did you get the assembled version? That's much less labor. Do you have a hand sketch or similar for how to control what you need to control? It sounds like you're purchase setup allows you to sniff data traffic. Do you know what messages need to be sent to make the board comply with our wishes?
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:59 pm

I did get the assembled+pigtail.

I have some basic control for the fuel pressure that I am working with, but beyond that nothing else. I don't have the original ECU but I do have the service manual so at least I know what sensor is what and what voltage etc it is looking for, and sometimes nominal values, but I am sort of starting from scratch.

I have been looking a bit into the rusEFI codebase and I'm comfortable modifying it for my needs.. I'm pretty big into making dynamic (and finite) state machines and see some opportunities to clearly define that 'sketch' of control flow in a nice manner - maybe it'll eventually be merged in. I'd also like to take a peak at what russian did with the electronic throttle body he has been playing with, as I have one too (well, technically it didn't come with the engine, but I will get the original/replacement)

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:22 am

Assembled frankenso bundle arrived today..

I was poking around at some of the scheduler code last night, will be diving deeper into it now that I have compatible hardware.

School's been great - exactly what I wanted, but not a lot of time in the end for personal projects, compared to what I was able to do before.

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:18 am

Good to hear school is great. Let us know if you have any questions. Perhaps you can schedule project time during the holiday break(s).
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Abricos » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:41 am


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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:28 am

Abricos wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:41 am
Maybe help to assemble ...
https://rusefi.com/docs/ibom/frankenso_latest.html
thanks for the link, but I got an assembled board. really nice interface for looking through though, for whichever mods I may need to make - taping into the SPI should be easy enough (for the MC33816). I might sample a glowplug controller as well, and may design a daughter board with both.

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by russian » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Noxz wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:28 am
taping into the SPI should be easy enough (for the MC33816)
Have you considered OEM external GDI injector drivers as first iteration option? Looks like these were popular during the transition period and Toyota is still using one?

No idea what kind of control they use but I assume older models would be something simple. See also viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1329&p=30350#p30350

Let me know since I might be available to source some cheaper European option while I am in Europe.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:32 am

Hmmm, they have some cheap salvage yard belt drive injector pumps. Do you think you can find some of those? I recall e-bay seemed to indicate they could be obtained for around $50, but had around $50 in shipping. I'd pay around $50 to $100-ish for an injector pump if you can get one.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:27 am

russian wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:09 pm
Have you considered OEM external GDI injector drivers as first iteration option?
I never really looked into what else was available due to the need to interface with it to some degree - or the unknown settings/curve of the rail pressure sensor. Is the concern (due to you quoting part of my text) the SPI interface? The only time that is used for the MC33816 (and I got the evaluation board - so I am familiar and have a working module in that regard which would be another reason I dont want to look for anything else) is for the initial program RAM on bootup (it doesnt store anything - maybe a few settings but no microcode) but you trigger each injector through a pin not serial control. It also has two other Vbatt drivers (versus a Peak-Hold that the 4 cylinders use) which will be used for the SCV (Suction control valve) and the High Pressure Common Rail Regulator Valve (this needs an acronym, HPCRIS is used in one paper for the injection system as a whole).

The only real logic I am "missing" is the feedback loop of when to trigger the SCV based on timing (to deliver the requested amount into the rail to keep pressures where they should be) and the easier relief valve for over pressurization.. I've been reading into the codebase and noticed https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/329 gives me a small hiccup if not well regulated. I am reviewing some of the peer reviewed papers on such pressure regulation this weekend and deciding what algorithm I will pursue.

It is now rainy season here, and although I am trying to be outside more, for the dog, I have plenty of time inside to hack on this and that - got caught up in a few school and house projects but still actively working towards this because I do not want to be rained on while biking (the 2mi) to school and back.

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by russian » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:09 pm

SPI could be easy if things work right away but they can also go bad if something unexpected happens. Also you need to design a board (unless you are using a demo board?) - OEM boxes I assume you just wire and you are ready to prototype. That's the only reason why I was suggesting to consider a shortcut.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:17 pm

I could see how unexpected things could happen - worst case scenario if unable to interface would be to have a tiny uC w/ a single SPI that does nothing but upload the code on bootup. And prototyping will be done on the evaluation - initially. I think I will redesign kb1gtt's board that he made to also include the glowplug IC etc. I can imagine where other's may want to use GDI and have no need for glowplug - but in the end I will want/need it myself so why not include it in a single board. A separate glowplug daughter board could be designed instead. Thoughts?

I know I have stated that I am sort of in a rush as I dont want to get rained on - but I am trying not to actually rush things and not take shortcuts. I was making a ton of progress in the beginning but all I was doing was building a flow bench and showing every step/problem I had.. now I just have to make the thing work, properly. I have a few side research projects essentially related to school/my new trade that is taking up some of my weekends but hopefully I can make progress everywhere.

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:47 pm

I might suggest making a secondary glow plug board for now. I recall you already have a populated demo board for the injectors, might as well use that for now, then add the glow-worm board. You can likely get by with an ebay relay board for now. I recall the glow sticks get turned on for something like 5 seconds when starting. The below can drive 10A. It might not last as long as you might desire, but meh, it's less than $3.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3V-3-3V-Relay- ... :rk:1:pf:0

Once you have these pieces scabbed together and mostly working, then I'm sure someone can help spin a board which includes all the stuff you want on it ;) ;) nudge nudge know what I mean, know what I mean.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:42 am

I have relays on hand to make it work if I need to go that route..

the IC I was looking into was ST's L9524C
https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog ... 9524c.html

Has a few more features than simple on/off :)

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:41 am

On winter break till just past New Years, so have a bit of down time.. (but school's been great, and I haven't been rained on _too_ much.. yet)

Reading through a few things from the service manual (to remember things), it stated the SCV is controlled by a PWM signal, not a timed control. It did, however, also state that even though there was dual output from the sensor, that high means high pressure.. this is only partly true so I wondered how accurate it may have been.

From pics, as stated before, the pump appears to be an OEM order of a Denso HP3.. the HP2 uses time control, but per a service manual the HP3's SCV is a linear valve and uses PWM.. this actually makes things easier.

Maybe a little time away helped gain a better perspective, otherwise who knows if I would have gone all the way down the road of trying to code time-control instead of duty cycle the pump..

The main paper I wanted to use for equations doesn't take into account a SCV.. so either I need to figure that section out myself or find another paper. I'm not against trying to figure out the maths myself.. I honestly don't think it's too difficult to figure out at this point.

I hope to have pressure regulation working before the break is over.. maybe even those injectors spritzing biodiesel into bottles!

(small edit on an afterthought note.. knowing the timing could allow for a prediction of when exactly the extra pressure will be delivered)

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:50 am

???? SCV = SINGLE CAVITY VALVE ????? Is SCV really needed for a flow bench? I seem to recall this was a performance thing, more than required thing. Could you get a flow bench like 90% working, then fine tune the SCV portion?

Good to hear you're getting back into it. We have some folks who have expressed interest in the 2.0T FSI VW engine. If we could get a test bench running, that would be a great step towards making a ECU for the FSI engines.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:36 pm

SCV = Suction Control Valve
PCV = Pressure Control Valve, which I have been calling the [rail] relief valve, but I like this new acronym (from a paper) better

So, after a little bit of digging and thinking last night, this is essentially what I came up with, logic wise..

The purpose of the SCV is an inlet limiting valve. The purpose of the PCV is to lower pressure in the rail from being too high. Per various sources, it takes 15KW (20 HP) to run a high pressure pump at full throttle.. try to apply that to a simple 100 HP car and you've taken a considerable chunk out of it's performance. but if you were rolling down the road at only 25% load, it would really only need ~5 HP.. Sure, if you went full throttle the PCV (pressure Control Valve) could relieve the excess back to the fuel tank, but that is wasteful.. instead if you metered the amount of fuel that went into the rail in the first place then the amount of excess you put in would be minimal, thus minimal loss of engine performance... so, in reality, I should really look at the SCV and try to avoid the PCV as much as possible!

The second thing I figured what this is all basically a feedback loop, and because of PWM signal and a semi-predictable, but adjustable, load (injectors + RPM) - well, it seems to me like a PWM Error/Compensation algorithm. Every major mfgr of PWM chips, like Texas Instruments & On semiconductor just to name a few, has fairly detailed info about how they implement such correction in their chips.. so I almost want to forget about finding a diesel specific paper/equation and look for an electrical equivalent where there is a ton of info on. It should also be easier to test, I may be able to even make a logical test circuit in LTSPICE (the only SPICE program I know) to simulate.. so now reading up on the feedback algos from those papers.

I actually quite like these new routes better due to the similarities and base logic being very well documented - I just need to relearn a bit about CCM/DCM etc etc..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:04 pm

I would like to encourage going over relief for now, to get it working, then add the suction control to gain performance.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:45 pm

Update..

I got the flow bench dusted off and powered back up, which required flipping some circuit breakers back on that were off during house renovation..

I was playing around with PWM signals (from the KL25Z to the MC33816, so actually using the injector driver board) to the relief/PCV. Essentially discovered that it has a hold % of ~60% duty cycle, so given that it is 4ohm, and 12v, that would roughly state 1.8 Amps for holding (which is a bit better for power usage than the 3.00 Amp constant).. I played around with frequency but it gets averaged out and seemed ~60% across the board, and faster is certainly better for that as anything low enough will have too much recoil. If I charge up some pressure and slowly drop the PWM it seems to dip in pressure a little bit between 60 to 55%, then is basically OFF under that.

The MC33816 is able to do peak-hold - that is the whole point.. even with the "fuel pumps" (on the eval board) circuit, although powered via Vbatt, they still have a current sense. I am looking deeper into the datasheet and microcode that gets uploaded (via SPI) and noticed that although I can get the board booted and "driven" (high voltage generated by the dc-dc converter) from the sample code available (based on the 65v Peak-Hold project) that it really is not configured for much more. Basically I was trying to adjust the current sense to do this (Current) peak-hold for this PCV solenoid and discovered that many of the expected values that I should change were 0 to begin with, not utilizing/enabling the sensing.

I would have expected a little more from the sample project but I also understand every valve/pump is different too.. I know they did do workshops with this driver (I found youtube videos at one point - there appears to be 5 related vids if you search) and likely passed on much knowledge during those targeted workshops that sample code and PDFs didnt quite get - at least not as a tutorial.. so just weeding my way through.


I have also begun modeling a bit into Octave (GNU implementation of matlab) to do the PID modeling as best as I can before trying to make something unstable. My aim was to detect/use the PWM data of the relief valve in there so I could figure standard 'leakage' and appropriate percentages needed.. At this point from playing with the physical device w/ varying PWM freqs, duty cycles, pressure, etc - and looking at response times, I can't see it being used for much more than trying to neutralize over pressure (it's not really regulating beyond that as it seems to either be ON or OFF, not linear/proportional like the SCV should be).

I believe I mentioned before having a current sense for both the PCV and the SCV would be nice.. they can't really share the same one. I've been half thinking about laying out the board differently and if I can hook onto one of the sense lines from one of the other channels (and load up all 4 injectors onto one sense line) in the code (for the SCV) - but we'll get to that road when we do.. Simply a side thought as I am tinkering with that end of things right now.. Not quite sure as of right now how I would go about adjusting the PWM cycle through the driver for the SCV beyond SPI (rewriting the specific Data_RAM word?) when the control is binary (ON/OFF... but the embedded peak-hold PWM generation is what I am most interested in leveraging)

Maybe a bit of a mouth full to grasp from my interpretation..

[small edit/sidenote.. appears they have a newer version, a MC33PT2000, which can do up to 6 cylinders and has more high/low side drivers.. 97% of the microcode is compatible, etc etc.. this may be the target, certainly not going to go for the eval board of that as well, getting pricey for hobbyists]

TLDR: I am diving back into the MC33816, that was not configured from the given sample code, to set the appropriate Peak-Hold current values for the relief/PCV

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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:33 pm

Sounds like good progress.

My experience with FS specialty chips, has been that the bottom half of the datasheet was written by one group, and the top half was written by another group. Then in the middle, they smashed together. The data was there, but it did not flow consistently from the top to the bottom of the datasheet. A functional example would have been really helpful with the stuff we were dubbing with.

Might also be worth looking into scilab. I recall that allows PID simulations as well.

When it comes to simulations, you might find the below analogies interesting. AKA if you represent voltage as mechanical velocity, etc, you can use simple silulation tools like QUCS to predict both mechanical and electrical content.
http://lpsa.swarthmore.edu/Analogs/Elec ... alogs.html
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:27 pm

it feels more so that there wasn't a good tutorial on a complete setup from start to finish.. datasheets are usually overly complex about every register, but tying it all together is what makes it tick.

How I am using Octave currently is just a graphing extension on scripting.. so at this point it wouldn't be an issue to change to anything that provided similar..

something I have modeled thus far is when the high pressure pump's check valve get's opened.. it will get more and more "delayed" as pressure in the rail increases because it first has to get to equal pressure.. neat to see graphically.. likely has no bearing on a final optimized solution but was really interesting to implement.

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