FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Tonight I tracked the fuel gauge issue to the sending unit and knowing a new one is like $250, I pulled apart the old one and all it needed was a little 600 grit sandpaper to polish on the slider surfaces and good as new, gauge and warning light both back on.

Feeling full of myself after that I connected the CAN expander to the ecu, powered up...yeah nothing. Put a scope on the lines and saw nothing....email to the ecu guy begging for help. There is a reason I've been putting this off for 5 years......
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Way back I damaged a couple clips inside the main ECU connector so today was replace the connector day father than start adding more wires to the broken one, still there were about 50 to move frown
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Probably a good chunk of the the rest of the day will be new wires. The expander needs its 12 MAP signal lines for starters and I'm not even sure what all the wires in the cabin are all about , clearly I was plotting something 5 years ago.

I am a little proud of myself for planning the CAN expander.....there was a bundle with all the power, ground signal all run and labeled.
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All the wire I used everywhere is aircraft grade and all the analog signal lines are shielded, which slows things down a bit. Its a bit harder to strip because its fine strand and each strand is cad plated so you need to be really careful not to nick them....I use a thermal stripper
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Then on the shield stuff the shielding is braided so it needs to be unbraided and either twisted and run to ground (I ground the ecu end, never ground both ends) or they make these cool connectors that heatshink and then solder themselves when you get them hot enough, which only works with tefzel aircraft wire, pvc auto wire would catch fire. The solder area changes from red to clear when the solder melts so you know its done and the heatshink seals so moisture can't get in....pretty cool but it take time to do.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Finished wiring in the MAP wires yesterday but couldn't get the damn thing working....played with every setting....moved it to CAN B......went inside and had drink. This morning I remembered that early on I'd mistakenly type the CAN addresses in HEX and the letter part was accepted...hmmm...I wonder....yeah, changed the addresses from decimal to HEX and I have 12 MAP readings. The way the board works the 12 readings are not truly independent even thought there are 12 sensors, but its easy to see the 0-10% error mistuned TBs would make and larger errors also show just not in a simple linear way, and because this is a board thing the old way I was getting the signals would have the same issue.

A couple little things to fix in the model and display but its mostly working now....at least with a brake bleed pump hook up to pull vacuum, still need to see what it does on a running engine.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

On that whole 2 steps forward 1 step back path getting the cylinder reading working made me realize the multiMAP itself was really working right. When I saw the output didn't match the lowest cylinder I quickly told myself and all of you that's normal....no its not.
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The blue is MAP1 voltage, which I confirmed with a meter, its right. The purple is the multiMAP output, it doesn't track right and never goes below 1.3V, but by 1.4V its not longer tracking right at all, so while it could read to about 37kPa, 40 kPa it had really lost any hope of calibration.

hmmmmmm........Pulled the wire out of the ECU connector and check with a meter...same answer

hmmmm......where's the circuit drawing, this is normally where I get myself into trouble because, yeah, I suck at electronics, but not today. The analog inputs on the ECU all have a 100k 5V pullup so when they are not connected to anything they read 5V which while often very helpful its buggering my NBO2 sensor reading and I thought maybe this too......but no. What's buggering this is the isolation amp, why is beyond my very limited abilities but it it the issue.......but, this thing is a pretty dead simple analog circuit, I just moved the output wire to bypass the amp and its pretty much fixed. Now I'm pretty sure the 5V pullup is causing voltage reading not to drop quite as low as it should, but that I can and did calibrate and now the MAP is about 1.5kPa above the cylinder reading at atmosphere, and about 1kPa high at the most vacuum I could pull....plenty close enough (red and orange lines)
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kb1gtt
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by kb1gtt »

In Figure 3 of the below PDF, it notes with +/-5V (a 10V swing) you only get 6V range, so I expect you loose about 2V on the low side and about 2V on the high side. The range is often not exactly centered, in your case it appears yours is 1.5V from the bottom rail.
https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/tl082.pdf

The MCP6002 would almost drop in and your lower rail would be good. However it's only a 6V component, so your 10V supply voltage would need to change to 5V. Keep in mind the MCP6002 claims it's a rail to rail, but it doesn't quite reach the top rail. From old memory I recall measuring it to miss the top rail by like 0.125V and the bottom rail was still like 20mV or 40mV. However its much closer to rail to rail than a normal generic opamp.

Moving MAP to before the opamp is perhaps not good. The opamp has a consistent burden on the diode circuits. Your ADC is likely to vary the burden and vary the measured readings. Your best off to fix the op-amp circuit.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'll have to think about that. The sensor output is like 0.300V-4.900V so with the new amp I'd be fixing the issue at the bottom but most likely loosing the ability to see WOT pressure correctly unless I setup a power fully at like 5.1 or 5.2V so the amp output range covers the sensor's range.
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kb1gtt
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by kb1gtt »

Perhaps put a 5.6V Zener or similar voltage limiter on the output of U14. Perhaps something like this. I have not check the watts, so I'm not sure this 1W would be OK, but something like this could be added to clamp the voltage.
https://octopart.com/1n4734a-on+semiconductor-1310081
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'll take a look....but I'm honestly leaning toward leaving it as-is. It got a 100k 5V pullup at the ECU so it sees a pretty stable load....maybe log it and take action if its drifting.

Trying to work through some of these wires.

I connecter the rear axle speed....it reads the speedo sensor and that end was wired, now it goes to the ecu.

Looking up front I see a couple long 3 conductor wires...must be wheel speed, easy. there are 3 2 conductor....I'll make one CAN to make future work easy, you know, now that I'm a CAN system master :)

my wiring pinout shows white/yellow as the "slow down" light

I show a clutch and brake pedal, I probably thought they would be good for traction and/or launch control....a couple of the orange wires I guess.

Then another 3 wire labeled steering so it looks like I was planning to add a steering angle/position sensor for logging I guess I was thinking. anyone have a good (aka low cost) solution for steering position?

This stuff takes forever....
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Spent a bit more time on MAP sensors after weather.com told me the correct baro reading for my area was 101.5 not the 99.5 may sensors displayed....101 ish now. On the other end the sensors on the multiMAP have a min output of 20kPa while the baro goes down to 10 which let me confirm my brake bleeder pump was pulling under 20 and I could use the lower flatline as a second cal point. That all seems close enough now and much better than it all was.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Ok, so weather station Baro is sea level corrected...had to redo the MAP/baro cal :oops:

To me the fact that a ferrari has a "Slow Down" dash light is about the funniest thing I can think of
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The ECU now has control of that light...I've not completely decided how the ECU will use that power but it has it. its a frikin bright light so I my do something light a dim (maybe with slow blink) is traction control active and bright flashing is low oil pressure and such.
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I was also looking a bit at steering angle options and thinking maybe something like this from pegasus would fit up under the dash , mostly right now I want to know where the wire so I can button up the dash at some point
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Went to hook up a couple more wires tonigh....hmmm....no pins left, at least not the pins I was looking for.

When is someone going to turn a rusEFI ecu into a CAN I/O expander?

The plan now is I should be able to drive any relay with a HS pin, they are 2A I think, just need to rewire the relays. That will free up to 3...these are just gpio, the LS outputs are pwm so more valuable.

I think the 2 internal throttle controllers are also available....4 pins 0/12+ and all 4 can be driven separately I think. can use these for everything but a lot of things probably....

...again, went will a rusEFI be an CAN expander?
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'll add this thought, nobody plans to fail, they simply fail to plan.....yeah.....no idea where I planned to connect all those wires....
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Maybe just as a reference, right now I'm using:

32 AN in - 20 AN in +12 CAN AN in
22 LS (12 for injectors, 10 other)
5 Temp In (but 2 I'm just using as 5V pullup for my external throttle driver father than put resistors in the wire harness)
6 coil (there are 6 after a board rewire to activate 2 of them left from older board rev, but FW only supports 10 total currently....)
6 digital in
1 VR in pair

Looking over everything I'm short about 6 LS drivers. I have the 3 HS and 4 H-bridge I think....so maybe.

My how pins disappear.......
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

So looking thought everything, I have 0 LS, 1 HS and the DBW output left. The DBW I messed with tonight and couldn't quite get them doing what I want but I have a couple more ideas to try....hoping to get 2 usable outputs there. If I believe the 2 additional coils in FW are never coming I could take the 4 unused coil outs bur they are very low power HS on/off outputs so not very useful.

Tonight I connected the water temp gauge to the ECU and almost the low oil pressure light....but I ran out of heat shrink tubing to cover the splice (I had to cut the wire back as the OEM insulation was swelled and no longer fits in the ECU connector). I added some code to make the "slow down" light basically a check engine light that currently comes on with low oil pres, low fuel pre, high water temp....I'll add misfire and such later.

1 of the unused HS outs is for exhaust valves. I have 4 mufflers, 2 quiet (ish) and 2 loud. There are valves on the loud muffler and I have a solenoid valve that will open /close them. The quieter muffler should be good for 250-300hp which will handle all normal driving, then above that the gates of H_ll will open. Right now they are safety wired open, but I need to hook them up properly.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I keep finding I don't have the bits I need to finish stuff. 

-oil pressure warning light is waiting on heat shrink

-front wheel speed sensors waiting on 1/8" wire cover, heat shrink and I just discovered 1k resistors (sensor needs an external resistor and I now remember using my last when I switched the crank/cam position from VR to hall, the same hall I'm using for wheels so I used my resistors....I'll have 100 and the other bits tomorrow says amazon

-brake and clutch switches....I need a clutch switch.  I think I found something that will work, but a week to come.

Hopefully this weekend most of the little annoying  wiring will be done.  I've made some adjustments to the ECU code (model) and the water temp gauge now driven by the ecu, the oil light will be once I can heat shrink it and plug it in, the "slow down" light is check engine and light for low oil pres, low fuel pres, high water temp....I'll add more later like misfire, TBs out of sync and such.

I've decided its good the DBW outputs didn't work the way I wanted...that means I still have them for when I build variable rpm tuned air box, kind of like the porsche varioram that changes tuning with rpm.  I think the DBW output will be perfect for that.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Tried to wire up the brake pedal switch....weird, no power ....oh...looks like I never completely finished the fuse box upgrade to the point of there being fuses..one more thing. They will be here Sunday.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

The fuse box pic reminded me that is where the whole stupid project stared and why the car rolled into the shop in the first place...yup, the whole V12 epic including new love of opensource or otherwise programable ECUs began with with wiring. I'm not sure if birdman had yet release his plug&play 308 fuse box upgrade but I was having constant power issues as well as ECU problems on the supercharged setup. The fuses were corroding as many have an issue with and the ECU I got a great deal on because they had been recalled over a crank sensor option I didn't need not working right...1/2 price knowing for sure that would never work. It turned out that as the ECU got warm in the trunk the working crank trigger didn't work right either and timing would jump advanced enough so it would detonate at idle.

I bought a motec M800 and decided to mount it in the the cabin....that is the M800 bracket I made that the fuses are bolted too. it was going to slip up under the dash and I decided to just replace the fuse box with modern stuff along with adding extras for the ECU....then the stock relay panel was right there and it would be a super net install.

I don't recall exactly when it all went off the rails......but the project is ending where it began with me cleaning up the fuse box. Honestly it looks like its mostly done and ready for fuses. I'm also remembering the fuse numbers match original and I did leave so tape with numbers so I know how I numbered it....when the fuses come tomorrow I should be able to just plug them in....and see what systems don't work after sitting all these years.

Edit: this post reminded me I'm on my 5th ECU.  Haltech E6k, Haltech E11v1, Motec M800, Motec M150, Enginelab EL129 (AEM infinity7), 6 if I count the o5e open source project that was about concurrent with the M150 time
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

It is slow going......

Today I ran the steering angle, brake and clutch wires through the dash then got power to the brake switch so I could figure out which wire was which and connected the ECU lead.  Also jumped of the hot for the clutch switch when it arrives.  Brake and clutch are wired to the ECU, held on steering until I have a sensor.   Heat shrink and wire wrap came this morning and resistors this evening so I was able to get the front wheel sensors installed.  I wired the signal to the ECU but still need to do the power and ground in the trunk but the sensors worked out nice....they are universal, so 5, 12, 15, 24V which meads external power resistor and I prefer to keep that with the sensor than at the ECU end so should I change sensors I'm not rewiring the car.

I think this means I can put the cabin back together tomorrow....that would be nice after so many years.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Semi-related as it involves wires.  When I switched to the F430 calipers and rotors I also eliminated the power brakes expecting ITBs and big cams would make them worthless anyway.  as I was pulling the wheel speed sensor wire I noticed the brake fluid level wire just laying there looking lonely which got me wondering if there is a fluid level sensor that will work with the compact master cylinders I have?  A quick google search didn't find anything so the question goes to the community, anyone ever seen a level sensor for a setup like this?
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

kept at wires all weekend and here's something I haven't seen in many years...a mostly assembled interior
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for those that don't know, Ferrari carpet is real wool, and apparently also really delicious ...frikin moths. The really funny part is the most of the damage was to the bits I pulled out and stored so I didn't damage them working....DOH!
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

More slow going getting the ECU's internal WBO2 controllers working. The guy who owns the ECU company shared a few models and this is one of them but he works in scripting and I don't so I had to figure that out a bit to get the model to built....then try to figure out what it does exactly. I think I have it it, at least mostly, it seems to be mostly working but I suspect I have something pinned wrong as it settles at .996 lambda sitting in open air which is clearly not right. Its a cj125 onboard that needs to be controlled and he created a cj125 item (library function) that does I don't know what exactly because its not yet in the documentation.

Now my plan was to roll the push mower over and stick the sensor in the exhaust to test it but the external controller sensor that should be working fine is not giving me a reading, it pins at 1.3 lambda in open air but doesn't change in the mower exhaust....that could be the truth I guess ....the push mower doesn't have a choke I can get to easily....gave up for the night.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

A couple long days filled with confusion later and the onboard WBO2 controllers are MOSTLY working

The innovate controller I was using lst run wasn't working now because it was mislabeled....there is a good chance all my data from that time is flipped bank to bank.  Easy enough.

I had all kinds of things to sort with the on-board stuff.  I'm pretty sure the model I downloaded was a simulator test only kind of thing and has never actually worked with a real O2 sensor....I need to confirm that but for sure it wasn't behaving in a very useful way for me.  That was for sure confusing me but was not the biggest issue which was a sensor/wiring problem that took a while to find because I was sure the model wasn't doing what it should.  

So, I have a pair of innovate LC-2 WB setups.  They use  a bosch 7057 sensor and for whatever reason I had a 3rd sensor which was also 7057.  When I googled AEM 4.9 sensor I found it was a 17025 which is pinned differently so I adjusted my wiring accordingly....everyone seems to call the pins different names that I'm sure make sense to THEM, but I just went by the pinouts......and 2 days later realized that while all the new AEM stuff is 4.9, they spec a 4.2 sensor for the infinity ECUs so I had it connected wrong.....and the pins of the 7057 4.9 sensor match the 4.2 so it should have been easy.  

That sort I spent today taking reading on my O2 sensor tester......a mt dew bottle, and propane supply.  One sensor is the innovate and one driving on the ECU.

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My struggle was getting the controller tuned....and I've yet to really succeed.  I get it looking good going lean to rich
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but then rich to lean it wants to "ring" or oscillate out of control
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but if I tune to never oscillate then it often never matches the properly (cyan well above red)
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And that is where the night ended.  I have readings but there is a bit more work to be done.  I suspect that internally the ECU is adjusting the gain on the sensor at lambda=1  from 8 to 17  and then back to improve resolution over the range and that is causing my tuning issue...which brings me back to I don't believe the model I downloaded and have pretty heavily modified at this point ever ran a real sensor.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I made a few changes to cut the heater and reset the PID on over temp condition and put the PID values in a table so under temp/over temp can be tuned different and it seems pretty good now.

I pulled a log of the lambda values going full rich to full lean over 10 minutes or so with both the onboard and innovate (that I recalibrate just before the run) and I don't match everywhere.....but that's a simple table to adjust. Maybe tweak it a bit more then pull another log or 2 then switch sensors and do it again and its ready for prime time.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mck1117 »

is that oscillation in the heater controller?
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:02 am
is that oscillation in the heater controller?
Yes.

I've really struggle with this. Part of this might be because its on a bench not a hot exhaust pipe but it acts very different in the under temp region than the over temp and wants a pretty big I term to get UR to actually match the cal signal.....but that causes massive overshoot and oscillation.

Right now I've got it set to cut the heater and reset pid values when UR<(cal-1)&&-UR slope which does this
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With these PID values
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red=cal signal
cyan=UR
purple=heater PWM
white=pid rest

Far from ideal but functional. After sleeping on it I think what I am going to do is complicate it just a bit more. Getting it to heat an settle is easy
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with these more normal tuning strategy values (the 2 bottom terms are clamps on the integral term, my pid output is always negative, I invert later)
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....but notice how far off it settles from target (cyan above red). These same settings that are clearly way over damped make it ring when going rich to lean quickly which led me to the tables....and the aggressive behavior I currently have to force the line to match. I'm thinking I can give it a bit softer touch and still get the desired result by adding a second set of tables. The set I have now I'll retune to give me the damped (to over damped) response at all conditions. Then the second set will crank up the I term when its close to target && slope close to 0.......in theory this will do it....in theory......
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mck1117 »

You can get away with pretty lazy heater settings. I had no problem at all tuning the heater PID loop (but I'm not using a cj125, so the settings aren't directly translateable).

Also remember that the exhaust stream is actually colder than the sensor target temperature (except at very very high load), so a sensor in the exhaust is actually the same as just blowing air across the sensor tip.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

That is for sure not the situation I'm dealing with.....perhaps I have something wired wrong or its just not functioning correctly...or I'm still using it wrong. I was so busy looking at the UR and heater that I wasn't watching much else, at least not closely.

I thought it was pretty straightforward, read UR and heat to keep it at 2.5 (I have an internal item called URcal that is outputting a step function, 25/2.2/1.95 about and I thought the 2.5ish was the point to use) ....but that seems to produce the wrong behavior with the UA running like 1.3-3.5 when it should be like 0.4-2.6. Raising the UR control point does shift the UA range down.

The cj125 date sheet in anything but clear to me so I'm mostly guessing what I'm supposed to do really. Thought I'd adjust until lambda matched my innovate controller 1.0 output but something seemed wrong.....Played musical sensors a bit and I'm pretty certain the "new" sensor that's been on the shelf for years was issues.....maybe dropped or knocked 1 too many times over the years. Time for a drink and then maybe another go at it wiht the 2 old sensors that seems to work right.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mck1117 »

what's your integrator clamp set to?
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

+/-20 at the moment. At 10 it will never get to the target. it just moves so fast once the sensor is warm.....the key might be pull this in a slower loop, its 10 ms at the moment.....thinking 50ms or more might help.

For sure another sensor is not right.....that leaves 1. It seems by chance the only good sensor is the one I had on the innovate. Doesn't help with my pid trouble but helps explain odd readings.
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mck1117 »

mk e wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:39 pm
+/-20 at the moment. At 10 it will never get to the target. it just moves so fast once the sensor is warm.....the key might be pull this in a slower loop, its 10 ms at the moment.....thinking 50ms or more might help.

For sure another sensor is not right.....that leaves 1. It seems by chance the only good sensor is the one I had on the innovate. Doesn't help with my pid trouble but helps explain odd readings.
set the limit much higher - I have it at +-100. I have no D term at all, you don't need it. Try doing zeigler-nichols to get you close, then use the PI only calcs to compute gains.
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