FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:51 am

set the limit much higher - I have it at +-100. I have no D term at all, you don't need it. Try doing zeigler-nichols to get you close, then use the PI only calcs to compute gains.
Funny, that is where I started. It spit out a P of 65 and I of 1.5. I played with I limits 50-100 no real change and it did work fine to heat and get it close....within .2 or .3 V......until I hit it with the propane then it starts ringing. lean to rich is okish, rich to lean rings every time. I redid the calcs with the new info, and it said like 20 and 0.3......which settles the ring but never gets hot enough to get it off the 5V limit...slope is 0 so it keeps thinking it ready to change direction and it sits pinned.

My hope right now is this was all a bad sensor issue and when I got out in a couple minutes and reset to the 2.5ish Vcal number, redo the above math all will be magically well
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mk e wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:39 am

My hope right now is this was all a bad sensor issue and when I got out in a couple minutes and reset to the 2.5ish Vcal number, redo the above math all will be magically well
A bad sensor is why the output numbers weren't as expected......but didn't help a lot with the pid issue. Right now I have a warn-up timer that runs 5 sec to a limiter (on above/off below) so the sensor wont get over heated and the pid picks up at the 5sec or if the voltage drops below 4.8V (off the limit)...but the limiter will kick back on if anytime it again goes above the 4.8. Then my pid tables are 2d using UR voltage and slope....and it mostly works.....a bit more time tuning it and I think it will be there.

No idea how a simple pid is working for you.....this is making my head want to explode and I'm about out of tricks.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mk e wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:43 am

No idea how a simple pid is working for you.....this is making my head want to explode and I'm about out of tricks.
hmmmm.....the 3 sensors I have (well 1 now) are all 7057, short for 0258007057 which has the standard bosch 4.9 lsu connector but is in fact a 4.2 sensor. reading the LC-2 instructions it says it works with both.....mine came with the 4.2 sensors. This knowledge may change things a bit.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

A pair of actual 4.9 sensors will be here Friday. Hopefully these sorts out these issues.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:00 pm
You can get away with pretty lazy heater settings. I had no problem at all tuning the heater PID loop (but I'm not using a cj125, so the settings aren't directly translateable).
Ok then. Now that I have an actual 4.9 sensor connected instead of a 4.2 I thought was a 4.9 that is also the result I get...dead stable.

Speaking of dead, the one 4.2 I thought was working is really just spitting out gibberish....it moves up and down in response to a change in O2 but not in the way it should. I'm not certain the cal is right on the new sensor but I am certain then lawn mower isn't >1.3 and that and that I can get a bottle filled with pretty much straight propane. The new sensor put the mower at 0.8 which seems rich but....maybe. Just need to wire up the 2nd sensor and merge this new stuff into the main model and O2 sensors are done.

That means I really had no idea at all which mixture I was running when last the engine ran.....
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mck1117 »

mk e wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:01 am
mck1117 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:00 pm
You can get away with pretty lazy heater settings. I had no problem at all tuning the heater PID loop (but I'm not using a cj125, so the settings aren't directly translateable).
Ok then. Now that I have an actual 4.9 sensor connected instead of a 4.2 I thought was a 4.9 that is also the result I get...dead stable.

Speaking of dead, the one 4.2 I thought was working is really just spitting out gibberish....it moves up and down in response to a change in O2 but not in the way it should. I'm not certain the cal is right on the new sensor but I am certain then lawn mower isn't >1.3 and that and that I can get a bottle filled with pretty much straight propane. The new sensor put the mower at 0.8 which seems rich but....maybe. Just need to wire up the 2nd sensor and merge this new stuff into the main model and O2 sensors are done.

That means I really had no idea at all which mixture I was running when last the engine ran.....
LSU 4.2 and 4.9 target different voltages on Ur, since you want 82.5 ohms on LSU4.2 instead of 300 on 4.9. I'd believe a lawnmower running at 0.8 lambda. Tiny carbs are pretty terrible.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:33 am

LSU 4.2 and 4.9 target different voltages on Ur, since you want 82.5 ohms on LSU4.2 instead of 300 on 4.9. I'd believe a lawnmower running at 0.8 lambda. Tiny carbs are pretty terrible.
The 4.2 adventure was a tragic mistake....its connected to the innovate LC-2 but as I said the sensor is clearly not responding correctly....whether oil, coolant, heat sitting with key on....I don't know but its mostly dead.

As far as Ur, I'm clearly not understanding what I'm supposed to be doing with it. Right now I have to controlled to the sensor cal signal which is about 2.5V....am I supposed to be calculating a different voltage?

mower at <0.8...I wanted to believe it was true but the plug never lies....its richer than 1 for sure , 0.95 maybe? 0.9 I could believe, but at 7.5-8.0 (depending where exactly I held the sensor) it would be a pretty dark tan and its just not so I have a calibration issue. Offset on Ua I'm not accounting for? Ur controlled to the wrong voltage? not sure. I could replace the 4.2 senor on the innovate unit or I was thinking just look at my NB sensors once its running...don't know.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Fun with O2 sensors continues...but I think is mostly sorted. I'm pretty sure all the sensors that were installed when this engine was last running are trashed. Also one of my new genuine imitation bosch 4.9 sensors died....mostly died, its intermittent. I also learned to keep the charger on the battery....system voltage changes heater output it turns out.

At the moment I have a NB and a 4.9 connected and have plenty usable. The ECU has 100k 5v pullups on all AN pins which is not right to read a NBO2 sensor, but it seems work and with a new sensors is basically 0.2-1.2V output, so a 0.2V offset putting 1.0 lambda at 0.650V.

Then, and I'm trying to confirm this, the cj125 chip on the board appears setup for a 4.2 sensor....which I have little interest in using, but seem ok with the 4.9 but the calibration is off. I get an output of 0.04-4.03V full right (shrouded in propane) to full lean (open air) and with the NB sensor telling me where 1.0 lambda is at about 1.1V (I may see if I can get a scope on the 4.9 sensor nerst pin just to be sure). I plotted the cal info from the bosch data sheet wiht V on the x axis and its linear (r^2>.99) though the rich region which is what I care about so I adjusted the calibration table to put 1.1V at 1.0 lambda and rescaled to put my .04V at there min output of .192V, then same on the other side of 1.0 knowing that isn't linear so anything leaner than about 1.5L is not actually calibrated but also not important to me.

All that done I'm pretty confident the mower I've been using as my sanity check is 1.1 lambda and covering the carb with my hand producess the expected responses.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

The machineshop foreman's been out a couple days, they should have an update for me today. I would really like to put the engine back together......a sink arrived the other day so not sure how much longer I can stay out of the basement.

The replacement WBO2 sensor came so both are working now. I couldn't help but play with the settings a little more so now they are working more better. I just need to spend a little time looking at the full model to be sure everything that was looking for the external innovate sensors is now looking at internal sensors. Also remembered I never calibrated the water temp gauge which is now controlled by the ECU so I took care of that.

I think this now just leaves the exhaust valve controller to setup but I'm not completely sure where I want to mount it. I think I'll run wires long enough to reach any reasonable location so I can get on with zip tying the harness and mounting the ecu, relay and fuss blocks. Then the center console is in place but not actually installed and few other things to deal with up there....I guess at least a week checking and fixing everything cabin related items....all important I guess but irrelevant when there is no engine so hopefully there is good news from the shop soon, the guy I talked to when I called sounded completely overwhelmed but hopefully I'm near the front of the line at this point.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I just tried to calibrate the tach and discovery it stops at 8k. Years ago the ferrari tach died and they are stupid expensive to get fixed so I bought a tach at the parts store, ripped out the guts and installed them in the ferrari housing. The numbers were close enough to right....but now I can program whatever I want so I added a calibration. Last run I played with the range I was using so it read mostly right but today I made the cal method better and loaded a little program to test it.....the tach stops at 8k. ☹️ I guess I figured that was fine when the redline was 7700....I'm going to need to buy a 10k tach and redo the guts swap it appears.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I was was just reminded that if I'm working on the tach the face will need a reprint so it goes to 11!
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Still no word on the block tach mods it is.

I did have a "spare"....which means a 2nd broken broken one all in bits...I think this is the original and badly faded, perfect for a redo.
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Last time i worked on this I was looking for a tach with similar number spacing so it would read about right, but this time what I really need is enough sweep.  So, I made a high tech measurement
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and went shopping on amazon

This one is better than what I have, but still not enough as I don't want to count on being able to drive it past the final number
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Winner-winner chicken dinner, more than enough!  I wanted something smallish so I know the gut will clear the indicator lights at the bottom of the factory face so this seems perfect, even the screw holes look close, and just $14 delivered so its in budget. This is a 13k tach, but the numbers don't matter, I will use the ECU to calibrate it to match the new face.
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Next I need to create the artwork I want on the face...it has the work art in it so its not really my thing but I'll give it a go.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

CAD model of the new tach face. I found a place that will put up to 3 different color sections on 2 dry transfer sheet for about $65...never tired it before about a more expensive place shows a speedo on their example page and saw it mentioned on a resto/custom gauge place so I guess that is how its done for 1-offs. Clean it off, spray it black black, put the transfers on.

https://customrubontransfers.com/product/multiple-colors-at-custom-sizes-colorzones-satin-notone-transfer/

The stock face place has 2 big cutouts, one is park brake on which I'll leave. The other is Brake, normally connected to the fluid switch but I don't have one those because I have tiny little race master cylinders.....so I guess the brake light becomes the shift light. I ran a few extra wires from the ECU and I think I have 2 or 3 HS pins left.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

11K red zone damn.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

AndreyB wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:53 am
11K red zone damn.
I THINK peak hp will be around 9k the way the headers and intake are tuned....so not a lot of purpose going past 9500, maybe in the lower gears it will make sense. The valve train is motorcycle and good to ...12.5k probably. the bottom end will do 11k in short bursts, like a drag race but not on a road course. its a log decay kind of thing on engine life run time to rebuild, 7500 for 10k hrs, 9500 for 10 hrs, 11k for 10 minutes...just guessing but about like that.

Its more you CAN hold your foot down when it really matters and not take the 1/10 or 2/10th sec shift loss, but don't make a habit of it. I'll setup the shift light to get increasingly angry as it moves past 9500.

But 11 has special meaning and at least to me its pretty funny.

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Transfers ordered.  The cheap price is for 20 day max to ship then cheap shipping is 10 days, so by the end of Jan I guess....unless its 20 business days then mid Feb, $76.

I realized why the images looked different with the background on or off....hide edges command was needed.  Then the fight to go from CAD to graphic.  Th transfer place had a link to an illustrator like program "inkscape" which I literally could not figure out how to make it do anything, anything at all useful or otherwise.  I exported the model as an STL, paint3D imported that and exported a pgn, I found "GIMP" which imported the png and the pdf template from the transfer place as xcf, and once I figured out the correct scaling I could edit the graphic in .xcf format, paste it the  now xcf template, then export the finished product as a pdf again because the transfer place doesn't support xcf....but that was good because then I could open the pdf with adobe and print it 1:1 to confirm everything looked right.  

Clearly there must be an easier way but this worked I think and here is the result.  There was room so I decided extra harsh marks would be the best way to register the 3 prints on the the face.  The white I left full, again for registrations to see where everything will be before transferring anything.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Tonight I ripped apart the new Chinese tach, fixed the a few cold solder joints on the board, ground the board to fit the Veglia mechanism, added a jump because my grinding removed a trace and the tach is working.  All easier than I expected. I'll strip and repaint the face and its ready for the transfers I ordered.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

It just occurred to me that the tach doesn't need a circuit board at all. 8 volt zener on the power to the gauge drive coil, other side to the ECU with pwm ground which it already has, same as I have the other gauges working. All the other stuff is to let the tach read a coil signal which it doesn't need to do anymore, so I wasted $14 on the Chinese tach....live and learn.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

It turns out the tach doesn't need anything but the drive coil to work just fine...it needs to be cleaned to free up the mechanism a bit after sitting apart for 20 years but other than that its good. I just connected the ground wire and the signal and put a 5V pullup thru a 240 Ohm resistor, the PWM in the cal table it about 92 at zero, 15 at 11k so the resistor is pretty near perfect. Just waiting on the transfers now to finish it. The ECU has 2 %v suppliers so I put stuff like this on the 2nd, away from sensors just incase.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Spent a ridiculous amount of time messing with the tach as cleaning helped but wasn't really the problem, it had to do with the coil in the tach and PWM duty cycles under 25%....I changed the supply voltage to avoid the problem DC and it works wonderful.
Today I thought I'd finally get the shift light setup....that only partially happened. I had the shift light and the exhaust valve to connect and 2 remaining ecu output pins....no wait....where is the 2nd one? gone to coil #11 it seems. I forgot that way the engine lab guys gave me instructions on how to get 12 coil pins when the spec sheet says 10, it cost a HS output pin. hmmmmm.....I was able to rewire the relay panel nd reclaim 1 output.

-Connected up the a wire for the shift light

- Added a wire for the exhaust valve...decide to test the valve....it clicks but doesn't do anything??? fast forward an hour and I realize the little solenoid is switching air ports and the valve itself, a pneumatic valve and needs high pressure air to operate.....DOH! There is a chance I don't need a valve, the vacuum actuators on the valves go at about 5 inhg....decided to leave the wire and see if I need to find a new valve once the engine is running again.

Which brings me to a moment I've been dreading.....wrapping up the wires in the trunk and making it look at least intentional if not neat. It was everything I fear it would be, much like 10lb of **** in a 5lb bag....but it went. Shift light tomorrow.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'll call the machine shop again tomorrow hoping for the block to be done I guess but in the mean time working down the list.

The shift light is working...of course it says "Brake Failure" not "Shift"....may look for a solution to that before the tach gets reassembled

I relocated the new fuse panel a bit higher to make the dash cover fit better.

Then it was time to pull apart the steering column to have a look at why the headlight up/down selector was flopping/popping to down and why the wiper switch stalk has been in the door panel since I got the car.

The lights up/down part was just a matter of bending the contacts a bit but ....hmmmm ....old crumpling plastic.....not exactly sure what to do about this....I'm sure a drink will help though.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

So after much thought I decided to see if I could just zip-tie them back together....as in weld them back together using a soldering iron and nylon zip-tie as filler.  They seem fine now.  I did switch from zip-ties as the filler to ABS which was easier to work with, a little lower melting point so I could keep the base material a little firmer, I kind of blended it into an alloy in the fill zone.  

Next I'll make sure everything is working before I torque the main nut down....but it looks good and probably 10 or 15 cents including the spray paint I dressed up the levers with.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

After about 3 months waiting the machine shop decided their power hone could not reach the bottom of my cylinders so the block came home unhoned, meaning the pistons doesn't fit into the cylinders.

My hand home reaches no problem....but it's very much a such job much a such job. About 45 minutes to get the piston in and 70 minutes with the course stones to get to .0025 clearance on the 1st hole. My plan is take the last thou with the fine stones so another 30 minutes there probably. On to roughing hole 2.....while trying not to think about there being 12.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by Wonderingwobble »

I flipped through the grass roots thread. There just isnt words to describe what you have done. You have touched every aspect of the build and its just the most epic thing Ive ever seen. Nothing ive seen comes to terms what you have done. Someone just needs to record everything you do and just make a youtube channel and post the videos. Pics just dont do justice what you are doing.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Wonderingwobble wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:50 pm
I flipped through the grass roots thread. There just isnt words to describe what you have done. You have touched every aspect of the build and its just the most epic thing Ive ever seen. Nothing ive seen comes to terms what you have done. Someone just needs to record everything you do and just make a youtube channel and post the videos. Pics just dont do justice what you are doing.
Thank you for the kind words. ....still a lot more to get done.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

do you mean there is a final goal? :)
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I figure the whole point of a toy is to play with it so "final goal" ?...probably not.

Finishing up the cylinders now but decided, for a number of reasons mostly related to me screwing up, to fit the pistons looser than originally planned making them safe for maybe 300-400hp of nitrous. It needs probably a couple hundred lbs more lightness added, still needs a bit of suspension work, paint for sure, the interior is sad again. 2-3 years (which means 6) I guess before I get to the Lincoln project.......
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'm pretty happy with how this turned out
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

A quick update. the engine is very slowly going back together. This is just a test fit but with each test fit I get more stuff actually fitting properly....I cut a lot of corners on the first build which cause problems so I'm trying not to repeat that this go around and that all takes a lot of time.
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I've also distracted myself with a sudden belief that electric power steering (EPS) and faster ration steering are requirements. I have a for fiesta EPS unit arriving tomorrow
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And also ordered a little hack box that send the steering controller the CAN info it needs to operate.
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The plan is to cut/weld/machine that EPS unit into the car and see how it works, then proclaim it not good enough and replace the hack box with a signal from the ECU so I can tune the steering feel to my heart's desire. I have an CAN line coiled up above the fuse box waiting for just such an emergency to arise. I'm pretty sure the EPS unit outputs steering angle and force and expects the ECU to feed it a gain number to use but it might just be looking for a vehicle speed and had the gain pre-programmed which will make like a little harder as I'll have to figure out what speed lies to tell it to get the desired response....time will tell.

Then the last bit of the plan involve a adding a $100-$200 gearbox 2:1 to the steering system to get from 3.2 turns lock to lock to a much more autoX friendly 1.6. There is a 2.5 turn quick rack available for about $500 so that is also an option too or and it added with the gear box give 1.25 turns lock to lock. newer stuff like a F488 are usually around 1.3 turns as a reference as that is about the limit without moving your hand and they are all paddle shift too, so both hand fixed to the wheel at all times. I'll probably start with the cheaper to do 1.6 turn setup and it will probably be just fine but the rack upgrade would be an easy bolt-on later if I change my mind.
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steering quickener.JPG (34 KiB) Viewed 7036 times
and here's the tach installed....I know its stupid but I just love it.
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20210213_090131.jpg (314.12 KiB) Viewed 7036 times
original for comparison
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20210213_083128.jpg (239.32 KiB) Viewed 7036 times
mk e
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

A Toyota EPS unit uses a remote mounter controller and have 5 wires (I think), 2 big power, 3 from a strain gauge used to measure driver input force. Simple enough.

the ford fiesta I bought has a integral controller but 3 bolts and it comes off....to reveal 23 pins connecting the controller to the motor. 23!. It looks easy enough to extend all the wires but there is clearly a lot going on here. I THINK the 8 pin connector is giving a force reading and also steering angle the 12 pin I a little unsure but I suspect they are feeding the stator (outer magnets) so they maybe can PWM at lower current and just power the armature....not sure but I'm HOPING to get a steering angle CAN signal that I want so I can setup a for traction control system.

The controller inputs are a dead simple 5 wires. Big 50A power and ground, the CAN H/L/G I guess.
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Then more importantly to the driving experience my newly coated pistons arrived. Now the engine assembly is just holding on a lapping bar so I can final fit the main bearing and put this thing together.
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