FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

The steering is basically working mechanically, hopefully wired and doing its power steering thing by the weekend. I also added a "steering quickener" which is a 2:1 gear box so its only about 1.6 turns lock to lock now meaning never a need to move your hands on the wheel mid turn.....and REALLY needs that EPS unit working. I ordered some 8g wire that will be here Thursday, its 50A so I almost went 6 but decided its only about 4ft so 8g should do I hope.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

working electric power steering. I've got some clean up to do then I'll plug in the CAN and see if I can get it working with the ECU and make it tuneable

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:35 am
mk e wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:32 am
there is a fine line between distraction and help.
OMG, I know which words I need on my next T-Shirt!
That day is closer and closer :)
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'm definitely living in distractions these days......allow me to show you pics of an oak stair case I'm just completing instead of completing the engine.

I do have some engine news though, the main bearing lapping bar I ordered in February is supposed to be delivered today so in theory, it I wasn't working on a stair case I could finally fit the main bearing and put the engine together :x
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I did a little actual engine work finally. Some months back when I discovered that when I put my newly honed and nice cylinders into the block the bores ranged in out of round from " I guess it will work" to "WFT is going on here" (.003-.017" for people who prefer numbers). I tacked it to a couple errors. First is I thought the block spigot bores were 3.572 because that is what the shop told me, so I ordered the cylinders at 3.571, but the real numbers are 3.5730-3.5760 so that is where the .003 out of round was coming from. In the hole honing fiasco I ended up using 6 new and 6 old liners, the old liners I machined and did a shit job it seems, they are are all 3.571 up by the o-ring but 3 had taper toward the bottom and that is what caused the .017 reading...it turns out if they can move they will move

My 1st idea involved jbweld, but thin layer was a problem
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On the 3 bad ones is was ok though and I got them straight at 3.572
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Then may next plan was epoxy paint so they are all sitting upstair where its hot getting good and hard...they are about 3.578 so I can sand them to whatever I need
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Today I installed the main caps and measured the block up...need to decide how to straighten that out so you're all caught up now.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

whoa...is that liners finished and in the block for good? Indeed it is. The epoxy paint cleaned up nicely and I set them up to be just under to line to line fit in the block so I decided to warm the block a little before installing them....and now they are pretty round, certainly round enough to proceed.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

here it is, the official ferrari tech approved cam bucket retainer set up, seriously :)
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With that sorted I was free to flip the engine over.  I don't know why but this caught my eye
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The intake valve are a bit closer to the cylinder than the exhaust, butr pretty similar...maybe 2mm clearance?  Way, WAY back when I was trying to get the heads to fit the top row of head bolts I want to save, but keeping them as-is meant moving the head 2mm  lower than factory.....hmmmmm the means bigger intakes will fit!  Then the bore went from 81mm to 86mm and that means all the valve can get bigger.....and 14 year later here we are :)

Blue the mains
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Lapping bar in....hmmmm... sure looks like only the 3 center bearings are toughing...that is the direction the block was wrapped after welding but I thought it had been corrected, only mostly corrected it appears
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a little better
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and straight, ready to start the caps and that only took about 1.5 hour including the bucket retainers and adding a handle to the  lapping bar.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I measured the main bearing clearance with the bore gauge and got about 2.0 on the tightest and 2.4 on the loosest.  The original goal was to target 2.1 so that seemed like a win to me....but I was having trouble believing anything went right so I pulled out the plastigauge and it said they were all like 1.8-1.9, close but different.  
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I've read plastigauge will often give a smaller reading by a couple tenths but I don't think 1.8 or 2.4 are a bad numbers either way so crank installed
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I got the heads back off in record time, just 45 minutes!  I hate those nuts under the cams....

Thought I would install the oil tubes with the new o-rings...wrong o-rings.  I'll order more tomorrow.  I ordered red wrinkly paint today so redhead it will be.

Pulled the pistons out and realized what I deal I got...3 stickers, 2 beer koozies and a pen!  Wow!
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Then pulled out and assembled the pistons and rods which should go in tomorrow
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While doing the rings I noticed they must have had people do it wrong a couple times...quite a warning
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Recall I decided to use gapless rings to help with vacuum and compression at low speed because the ring gaps are larger than I had planned, but nitrous safe so not all bad.  for those that have never seen gapless rings, they aren't actually gapless, they put 2 rings in 1 groove with the gaps 180 degrees to each other and the oil film seals them together.

3.5 hr total today
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Bam!
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Too clean!!! :) Exciting metal toys!
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:05 am
Too clean!!! :) Exciting metal toys!
yes and hopefully I'll be making her dirty very soon :D

I need to check the piston to valve clearances...they were hitting last time. So clay on the pistons and head back on temporarily, hopefully tomorrow I'll get the cams turning, then back apart to see what I have and learn if assembly continues or I need to fix something
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Yesterday was piston clay day. it all went quicker than I expected, I pulled head 1 and it looked perfect
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Pulled head 2 and...WTF?
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Thats not right!....I stood staring at it in disbelieve for probably 30 minutes. Finally I can to the understanding that the only possible explanation is the cams are timed wrong. The cams were custom made and delivered with no timing marks, so I have no one to blame for wrong marks than me. I post this high speed MAP log on another thread
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It was taken after I knew the engine was broken and I thought is was showing the issues with the problem cylinders but zooming in
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Its only showing 6 cylinders because the 6 with the wrong cam timing don't pull much vacuum....they ran but barely I guess. I can't wait to see how much better it runs with all the cams timed correctly.

With the clay test "passed" I preped for head install.  The new o-rings for the oil tubes came....I have an extra 98 or each if anyone else needs some ferrari 400/412 oil tube o-rings
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Then all the stuff in the V that can't be done with the heads on gets done and in my waste I nearly installed the coolant temp sensor
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before realizing that it's not supposed to be black.  Andrey would have been SOOOO disappointed in me so lucky I caught it!
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I used the red coolant last time thinking it was better for the engine but EVERYTHING corroded throughout the engine bay, no more of that.
And all is now well.  Heads tomorrow.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Opened the new head gaskets
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And the heads are on, hopefully for good.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

None? Several?

The block/crank are from a 400i, so F101C. The heads are testarossa..F110. The Ti connecting rods and oil pump are F360, so F131? The transaxle is 308, The TBs are ducatic 749/999, the valve train is Suzuki Hayabusa, cams/cylinders/piston/intake manifolds/headers/waterpump/flywheel/bellhousing are custom. The head gaskets are custom.

There is a reason I call it the frankenferrari ;)
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

This afternoon I saw a show..you know that one where the couple had separated but run into each other, end up spending the night together, then decide to move back in together and find out their old place is still available?
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I couple more pics from yesterday.  The trans getting cleaned and prepped, also shows the drysump pickups I added way back that connect to a F360 oil pump
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This puddle of coolant leaking from the trans disturbed me
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But it turner out it has gotten behind the motor mount, probably when i drained the block to pull it so no worries beyond the corroded nuts I"ll need to replace
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'll share this before I start so you guys have time to stop me if you see something wrong

Time from the engine software.  I
m using the marked row, true timing at .050 lift at the valve which accounts for lash, the line above is at the cam and would be how ferrari says to set timing by first setting the valve to 0 lash.  The lobe are a symmetric grind, which means the lobe center, which is what I'm really setting is exactly in the middle so if I set opening and closing is off, I just split the difference and the lobe center will be correct.
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Degree wheel on and marked, blue is intake, red exhaust.  My marks don't fall in the printed windows because I have the wheel on the flywheel not the damper so its backwards. This wheel is almost exactly the OD of my trigger pattern on the flywheel which I use for the ECU but also for reading timing so setting it up is as simple as stick it on with the 0 aligned with the TDC mark on the flywheel.  
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Last time I bolted it to the crank, I guess the flywheel wasn't finished?  don't recall, anyway I I did bank 1 then calculated where bank 2 stuff should be and clearly buggered that math beyond belief, but this time its going to be different!....I'm just going to move the damn degree wheel and use the exact same marks.  The trigger pattern is 36-1 so there is a tooth exactly every 10 degrees and the way I built is #1 TDC is exactly the center of a tooth marking #7 TCD exactly the center of the 6th tooth....no more dumbass mistakes...I hope....
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Cams in and they at least LOOK about right
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Once the timing cover is on I'll check them with a dial indicator.  The ferrari timing setup has (iirc) 25 holes on the sprockets and 24 on the cams setup giving 14.4 between holes on the sprocket and 15 on the cam which lets you move the timing in about 0.6 degree steps by looking for the hole that lines up closest so its not like most cars where you just need to get within a tooth on the chain...you need to get it right.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Timing cover time....and this is the job from hell on this engine.

First up, a stud for the timing chain drive pulled out on the last test fit so it needed to be helicoiled.  I like to fit or make a drill block to be sure it stays straight
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Then the bank 2 head gasket was sticking out a little bit so that had to be filed off
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Then the fun really begin.  First stage the cover itself with the oil pump and timing chains and the 2 crank gear/sprockets because there is no way to reach any of this once the cover goes on so it has to be in place and you have to try to get the gears on the crank and timing chain drive onto its studs as you go (I drilled hole in the front of the cover to allow access to the timing chain drive nuts  so they can be installed last).
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Then the oil chain tensioner goes on the block.  It has a lock screw so to lock it retracted, get the cover on to about 1/4" gap then slide a lock screwdriver in and try to release it without actually seeing it.
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And it all has to be covered with sealant because there is are a couple timing chain idler shafts that need to be seals but they cross the block/head line so you need to work fast before the sealant sets up
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And if all goes well you end up with a cover in place that won't leak and cams that turn....if it all went well.  
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Next up is indicate the cams in., then covers, intake, clutch and bellhousing...it should be an engine by next weekend.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by BeerMoneyMotorsports »

super impressive. love seeing one of these older exotic engines going together.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Remember some of the assembly difficulties come from this being a franken engine....The heads were built to were with timing belts not chains so there was some..adapting required. The sump is supposed to go on last on a 400i, but here the 308 tranaxle is the sump and needs to be pinned to the block so it needs to go on before the timing cover making the oil pump chain inaccessible. They are a bugger to assemble anyway but here there are extra problems of my own making .

Woke up early and rather than waste the time before work sitting I timed bank 1

first I confirmed my TDC setting on the degree wheel with a high tech welding rod extension for the dial indicator. Actual TDC is pretty hard to read directly so I read the indicator at +/- 15 degrees and make sure they are the same, TDC is exactly in the middle.
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I did exhaust first, if you look close you can see my pencil marks on the wheel that way I'm not trying to remember anything.  I got it within 1 degree which is about the best I can do...the cam moves about 0.6 degree each pin hole, the crank 1.2.
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Then did intake, I got it almost perfect. then a brought the engine to TDC to see were my original marks were...they were correct
Intake
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Exhaust
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I timed bank 2 then rolled back to #1 TDC to remark them....the marks are perfect which caused more staring in disbelief.  Finally I arrived at I did the clay test pretty wrong.  I put it together correctly but because of the clay I just turned it and disassembled and then wondered what the hell had gone wrong.  For a real assembly its align the marks, rotate, realign the marks cam by cam until they all come to the mark with the chain under tension and all the lash out of the system.  I didn't do that for the clay because once I turn it the clay is smashed.  Not sure how I convince myself they were as wrong as I thought I was seeing them....but the marks are right and the bank 2 exhaust cam clay looked as bad as it did because its last on the chain which does stretch under load and would have had the most slack to begin with I guess..... so I have o idea how to correctly clay this engine but on to other things I guess, I ordered break-in oil, trans oil, waterless coolant because I'm so done with shit corroding and an 1100lb scale for the engine lift so I can see how much this pig weighs.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

spent too much time shining up the cam covers before installing them
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

stumbled onto this today.....a V12 308 that actually runs, crazy!

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

clutch, starter cam end-covers cleaned and installed
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Not exactly what I planned to do.  I planned to part the vee stuff on tonight so I could do TBs tomorrow because I like to look at it with TBs on but it was not to be.  First I realized the way the temp sensor was sitting there was no way to install the pigtail
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also, there is no way to put the connector on the new oil pressure sending unit and also have the t'stat tube installed...Doh!
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Amazon is bringing a 45 for the oil pres on Friday, I backed the coolant temp sensor off and filled the gap with 518 sealant, hopefully it doesn't leak.

Then then were the end cover gaskets....I must have said TR (later model) rather than testarossa (early model) because neither the cam covers nor the end covers were really right.....518 sealant again.  2 of the 4 end cover gaskets did fit fine and I got 12 of those not 2, best I can figure I must have typed 1 then realized I needed 2 and ended up asking for 12, but at least they fit
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mk e
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Did a little.  
The bearing is replaced and gear drop gear cover installed and cover straightened out, it on easy as normal.  The coolant manifold is on.  The oil pres senor is back on.
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I cleaned up the TBs and intakes so they are ready to install...but that is not an easy job with the fuel rail in-between them so I decided to do that first thing in the morning rat5her than rush it at night after a couple drinks.  The Vacuum hoses have fallen apart which I saw and ordered replacement silicone hose but amazon kind of let me down here, I got 2 or the 3 packs I ordered but #s now shows as lost....so I just did the math and I have enough to do the center 8 cylinders meaning I can proceed and add the 4 outer Sunday when the reordered pack arrives as those I can reach.
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Last I opened all the other boxes which had 10 quarts of high zinc straight 30wt break-in oil, 2 (not fram) oil filters, a gallon of redline transmission oil, and 6 gallons of water free coolant. It5 looks to me like sunday will be the day the engine goes in and quite possibly next week end I will be ready to roll it out of the shop and start it up (notice I didn't say fir it up).
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mk e
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

This morning did not go exactly to plan.  First, I had calculated my vacuum hose lengths to work out perfect with 10ft rolls, but after I started cutting I realize they are called 10ft, but are actually 3m, so 2" short....delay to figure how to get things sorted.

ok, time to...wait... 2 injector to intake  are o-rings missing
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A search commenced.  I found 1 on the bench which gave me hope but after an hour or so of looking plus looing to see if by chance I has a spare hiding any where, nope. think...think....I can install the intake in the car, I'll install today and get to the intake in a few days when I have the o-rings. plan!

Car on jack stands, engine off the bench.  I'm thinking the front headers maybe can go on before the engine is full in so I can reach all the nuts so I grab the headers, chucks of valve seat fell out of 1.  Grab the other 2...what the???
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yes it is, the missing o-ring!
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Ok, back to intakes. then but its getting later and I'm going to be missed but...goop on
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stage the intakes
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the fuel rail must tuck under linkage
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kind of line stuff up
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Sacrifice a large male goat then push
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inspect in the ports to see if each still has and injector cuz that is the best you can do at inspecting what just happened
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now its time for the bolts and some would argue a large female goat should now also be sacrifices but if you grease the bolts to kind of hold them in place when you are staging you can install them without a sacrifice
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and can reach them sort of although the new thicker silicone vacuum hose makes it harder
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mk e
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

and that is it. Tb's and intakes installed
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