FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:19 pm
You have sweet toys :)

How does it go with the valve? Does the engine start as of today? Asking in light of the "rusEfi v12" idea using your engine.
I spotted it on craig's list, it was right on my way home from work and he was only asking $1000.....last night it came home for $900. Its from the 70s or early 80s but I don't think its ever been used.

Sadly the engine has not been touched :(

Lana's really really good about adding stuff to the list of "the shops not done until" stuff so I've not touched the engine. Soon the work will begin...I hope....but now when it is fixed I can do all the testing on the bench...well after I build stands and adapters and such.

Not ecu related but since I can't be in the shop until Lana releases me all I can do is stuff at work like shop for a dyno or design new wheels that look ind of 308ish but more modern I think and 18" and wide instead of factory 16" and narrow. Here's the first wheel fresh off the mill in china, just needs paint and 3 siblings. The china place has forged blanks, then I need to fit what I want inside...I';m pretty happy with how they are coming out and can't wait to see then on the car....of maybe even drive with them on the car :someday :)
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I found a stepper with a gear reduction the my ECU should be able to drive directly and a little encoder for the back I should be able to read and a big 1 1/2" valve that should have plenty of flow for the dyno...now hopefully the stepper can turn the valve and I have a working $2000 load valve for just over $100.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I think those valves are open or close with simple limit switches to know which? I imagine an encoder could be added to get some control but its not baked into the design and controlling low flow rates with a big ball valve can be a challenge just like controlling off-idle air flow with big throttles is. Also the required size is 1 1/2" as in 1.5" not 1/2.....which drives the price up quite a bit.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mk e wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:23 pm
russian wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:19 pm
You have sweet toys :)

How does it go with the valve? Does the engine start as of today? Asking in light of the "rusEfi v12" idea using your engine.
Sadly the engine has not been touched :(
So, the new dyno sitting there has me motivated to fix the engine....i started ordering parts. Everything that's broken is custom of course so 3-6 weeks on most of it then stuff like the cylinder sleeve comes as a blank 4 weeks from now when its off backorder and I need to machine 10-12lbs of iron of to find the sleeve hiding inside.

Anyway, it's moving again.

I have a plan to make a dyno wiring harness.....there might be room for some pre-planning here to create a way for you to plug in. If I'm not mistaken I'll still need some things in my ECU so it might require careful planning as I don't want a butchered dyno harness when were done....but he can discuss as the day arrives.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I think all the parts I need to fix it will be arriving in the next 2 weeks. A lot of custom so the "cylinder that is coming is a blank that I need to remove about 10lbs from to find a useable cylinder hiding inside....but it should be an engine again in about a month.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

hmmmm...turned into a full rebuild when i discovered the while the piston was beating up the valve it also completely beat out the rod bearing....I hate when that happens. i still think it will be an engine again in about 4-6 weeks....as long as Lana constitutes to let me spend.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:19 pm
You have sweet toys :)

How does it go with the valve? Does the engine start as of today? Asking in light of the "rusEfi v12" idea using your engine.
I think it will be an engine again in 6-8 weeks. What are you thinking you want to test? Just will it run or ????

I'm pretty sure I'll be setting it up on the dyno.....just not sure how much load and for how long I'll have the dyno setup to handle or how long it will take me to get the dyno functioning and the engine kind of setup right.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

mk e wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:00 pm
Just will it run or ????
Yes, mostly a publicity/achievement video since v12 is a WOW. While rusEfi has done single ETB, still would need to make progress to get to dual ETB.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:43 pm

Yes, mostly a publicity/achievement video since v12 is a WOW. While rusEfi has done single ETB, still would need to make progress to get to dual ETB.
Mine is single ETB.....it pulls a lot of power but its a single. I use a pololu driver that need a PWM and a direction signal.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

mk e wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:24 am
Mine is single ETB.....it pulls a lot of power but its a single. I use a pololu driver that need a PWM and a direction signal.
Our options are 7A TLE7209 or 6A TLE9201. If things are desperate there is 30A VNH2SP30.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:17 am
mk e wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:24 am
Mine is single ETB.....it pulls a lot of power but its a single. I use a pololu driver that need a PWM and a direction signal.
Our options are 7A TLE7209 or 6A TLE9201. If things are desperate there is 30A VNH2SP30.
I killed a pololu driver that I think said it was 17A, the one in there now is rated at 25A, its external in the wiring harness.

https://www.pololu.com/product/2994

My ecu has 2 internal drivers, but they are 5A. Its 2.3 ohm so 6A I guess....but the 17A driver died, not sure why....
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by stefanst »

12V and 17A is 200W. That seems like a lot of power for a throttle body. I don't really have a means of comparison, but it really seems excessive. I would install maybe a 5A flying fuse in the next version. If it blows, you know it's the raw amps. If it doesn't blow, but the driver blows again, it's likely some inductive spikes causing the trouble. If nothing blows, drive the car!
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

stefanst wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:41 pm
12V and 17A is 200W. That seems like a lot of power for a throttle body. I don't really have a means of comparison, but it really seems excessive. I would install maybe a 5A flying fuse in the next version. If it blows, you know it's the raw amps. If it doesn't blow, but the driver blows again, it's likely some inductive spikes causing the trouble. If nothing blows, drive the car!
It does seem like a lot.iiiit gets hot but not 200W hot but I had it on a 10A fuse which popped, twice. Its on a 15A now iirc, might be 20, I'd have to double check. Remember there are 12 TBs that need to move. The actuator I have was designed for 6 on an M BMW so its pretty big. I know the AEM/enginelab guys had trouble with the freescale 5A chip overheating on oem setups, big TBs used for roadracing where they are open most of the way and moving a lot...and that's just 1 TB.

Not sure way the driver failed.....they said to add a big cap which I didn't so it could be that. I have a cap on it now and maybe the smaller driver would be fine now but for an extra few $$ I just used the higher rated one not wanting to worry about it.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I thing I have all the part I need to track down to mount the dyno to the engine....just need the engine working. The dyno came with what appear to be older GM and Ford "clutch shaft) adapters that bolt to the dyno then plug into the GM or Ford (there are 2) clutches and had bolt patterns and centering adapter for the GM and Ford bellhousings. The ferrari 400i Auotmatic used a GM 400 THM trans, so there are ferrari to GM bellhousing adapters which I got along with a pre '86 GM bellhousing and the I can mount the dyno brake to the engine. I clearly don't have a GM cluthc for it to plug into but for $60 found a cool racing piece that has the right spline and bolt holes so I should be able to make a simple adapter. Nice, that much closer to testing.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

nothing at all to do with engines or ECUs but the wheels I designed are here and I'm pretty happy
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

could it be a v12 going back together and smashed heads nearly ready to bolt on? It could indeed...should be back in the (running) V12 club is 5 or 6 weeks :D
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

so here's why the engine is apart
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and the same head tonight...good as new and ready to assemble.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

As of tonight the heads are ready to install, jut waiting on the block and crank from the machine shop


On the busy work list while I wait I've been thinking the NBO2 sensors were not working and I should make a change. Currently I have 18 O2 bungs. 12 in each cylinder, 4 in the 1st collectors, 2 in the 2nd (bank) collectors. Sensors wise I have 4 NB O2 in the 1st collectors and 2 WB in the banks. I was thinking the ECU was just not reading the NB sensors correctly...all the analog inputs have a 5V pullup (100k iirc) which can be very helpful but isn't correct for a NBO2 sensor so when I got what looked like gibberish result I wasn't surprised. That got me to thinking a better setup would be 4 WB sensors in the 1st collectors and call it done and I've been pondering how to explain that to Lana as it will cost money.

This evening I spent some time digging through log data...the NB sensor are working just not the way I expected. I was displaying a lambda based on a simple lookup table created from the bosch data sheet...but it looks like the pullup is buggering it so the table was all wrong. its supposed to be 1.0 lambda at about 0.5V, rich above, lean below with a big dead zone from like 0.3-0.7. that's what I planned for but not what I have....it looks like I'm reading 05-1.5V with 1.0 lambda at about 1.0V, lean below, rich above so backwards and offset 0.5V. so they actually are working I guess.


11=1-3

12=4-6

15=7-9

17=10-12

This shows i had a problem in the 10-12 group with 1 dropping out intermittently
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here is where its clear something has gone wrong in the 7-9 group with that NB not in anyway matching the others
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

So I spent time today looking over ECU stuff on the PC and remembered I was planning to change the oil pressure sensor to send reads to the ecu then let the ecu run the dash gauge. I did a little hunting for a suitable pressure transducer....was getting ready to add it to the card when I noticed a not, "you last bought this item June 2017....hmmm....that's when I was running the engine and seeing low oil pressure which I ASSUMED meant the sending unit had failed because new engines don't have low oil pressure...yeah, the sending unit is probably just fine but I found the new sensor in the shop along with a package of adapters to make it fit the engine. It also looks like I added to the ecu code, found a mistake but still its mostly ready to go. Nice!, go me!

Also found a spare WB sensor giving me 3 (but only 2 controllers). I think the OEM oil pressure units are NLA.....that might buy me a WB controller or 2.....probably time to make the change to 4 WB sensors....watching the controller thread closely :)
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

More ECU looking....part of the plan with sending oil pressure to the ECU is to light the slow down light (a dash light that literally says "slow down"). I plan to use it as a general check engine light) but also to literally slow down and trigger a 2500 redline or so and only allow very light load when oil pressure is low, this is an electronic throttle setup so can add some code to limit the throttle...another thing on my to-do list.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

It's been a while...not sure where to start exactly. :o
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While I wait as I said I've been looking at ECU stuff. The ECU I have (enginelab.net EL129) lets you set it up to do literally anything you please. One thing I pleased was screen that shows me the MAP (manifold pressure) for each cylinder so when its time to sync the TBs I just pull up this screen and turn the screws until they are all reading 0 error, way easier than screwing around all day with an airflow gauge. I also use the data to let the ECU automatically adjust each cylinder's fuel mixture to compensate of TB sync errors so sync'd or not the engine runs pretty much the same which was one or my biggest concerns with 12 TBs. Pretty proud of that, so Yay me.

This is possible because I have I have a separate MAP sensors for each cylinder. on the multiMAP. With the ECU I'm able to look at the signal highish speed and pull individual cylinder data out based on crank position and rpm (higher rpm means more lag in the signal) and it works up to about 3500 rpm and idle/cruise manifold pressures.

The ECU only has just so many input pins to connect to and MAP is pretty critical so sending it in directly as 1 signal is reliable and simple....but that limits me on the cylinder data. What I'm working on now is entering the 21 century and using the CAN buss. I have a 12 channel analog input box that should connect to the ECU over CAN so my plan is to still send the main signal directly to the ECU as I currently do but to also send the 12 individual reading to the ECU via CAN and get the cylinder fuel trim working at all rpm and throttle positions.

Now understand the only thing I know about CAN is the word CAN which is mostly why the expander box has been sitting on the shelf for 5 years....I think it was $200 and 6 dedicated AN, 6 AN or HS out, pretty nice but NLA. Originally I bought it thinking I'd use it for cylinder O2 readings which is a more direct way to do everything I've been talking about but it really makes the engine look messy and each sensor has a heater that draws 2 amps I think ....hadn't really thought about it but that alone would eat 25% of what the alternator puts out. The big fuel pump pops 15A fuses, so its 20A, each injector 1A, so 12, each coil about 3-4A average so 30-40 there, fan is 20A I think.....and you see how driving at night becomes and issue. So no 12 O2 sensors seemed a good place to save power while making a much neater engine bay but reading the 12 MAP sensor seems a good enough substitute.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Looking at the wires was hurting my head....so I moved to something I understood and replaced the fuel pump. Way back in like June 2017 I realized there was a fuel pressure problem and ordered a new pump then realized there was also a whole engine problem and parked. new pump installed, pressure problem should be sorted. Instructions say it should be on a 30A circuit, no wonder it was popping 15A fuses :oops:
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

When through all my old papers figuring out what exactly is wire to what...it was all written down just not all in 1 place and after 3+ years I not completely remembering...getting old.

But also worked on the CAN expander setup and THINK I'm understanding how to get it working. That said, I THINK I have the ECU model (model=code lite) updated to read the expander and give me 12 MAP readings.

I know the cylinder reading will not look like the output from the multiMAP that I use as the MAP signal. The multiMAP signal is pretty strong (idle at 45kPa even with the huge cams I have) and quite linear as the throttles open but the cylinder reading will probably spike down to 45kPa for 30-60 crank degrees then rise quickly toward atm.....so the cylinder_MAP and MAP signals almost certainly will not match so I can't just compare the 2 and correct. What I coded, ok modeled is the correct term as I can't really code anything, is read the raw cyl signals, convert them to kPA, average them, correction factor=MAP/cyl_MAP_Avg, Cyl_MAP=correction_factor x Cyl_kPa. I think that will do it.. Now just kinda waiting on a connector so I can connect the expander and see if I can read it.

Also some work to do for oil pressure. I'm replacing an NLA oil pressure sending unit (its a Ferrari so stupid shit like an oil pressure sending unit goes NLA) which a pressure transducer. that signal will go to the ECU, and the ECU will light the light the low pressure warning light at 1 value, and then light the "slow down" light at a lower value and limit rpm/load. I have it partly modeled but need to get a voltage graph for the gauge,...my plan is I can just use a normal pwm to ground output to simulate the resistance to ground the stock sensor provided.....that might just display my ignorance but that is the plan.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by puff »

In a similar situation I used the following scheme to drive my fuel gauge needle on mazda rx8 dashboard:
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The R and C values are surely specified randomly here, but if you need it, I can give you exact values that helped me with a 5V setup (you'll definitely need to adjust it to 3V PWM)

At first, I wanted to pwm it directly, without opamp, but faced with some problems, and the o-scope confirmed: the voltage was rather a sine, than an even line, and I couldn't control it over the whole range needed for the cluster.
mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Thanks....I may need that help.

The stock sensor is for sure just a variable resistor to ground. My plan for I think maybe today is measure the sensor pressure response and what is coming from the gauge to the sensor....which I suspect is 12V at 0 load with the sensor being the second arm of a voltage divider with the winding that drive the needle being the 1st arm.....for sure its old school but my understanding could be all wrong cuz, yeah, I'm not an electronics guy by any stretch....but that got me to using one of the switch to gnd ECU drivers (so 0V, not 3 or 5). PWM I was going to try 1khz but I set it up as a user input so easy to change, I think I can go up to 50khz thinking at some point the mass of the gauge mechanism would be enough to damp the the PWM oscillation with no clever anything needed from me.

I finished up the changes I wanted to make the the ECU model (program) to add this plus the CAN stuff and using the new CAN MAP signals, Changed how I treat the NBO2 signals....new tuner screens for all of it so I think I'm ready to load it and test...but want to confirm the oil pressure gauge function and sensor output, maybe put a power supply to the gauge input too. My fuel gauge was dead last time I was play with the car, I'd like to get that sorted while the engine is out and the tanks easily accessible. Lots to do....
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by Gepro »

If you want a 0-5v signal to dash, you have to use a high-side output.

If you want to control the ground, you have to use a low-side output.

The microrusefi, for exemple, allow a 12v output, on the high side via jumper, perfect for tacho out.
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But you have to pay attention to the power, high side isn't for high power :P

For now, the "general purpose PWM1" don't have a lot of "load axis"
So, I believe that you can't put oil pressure or any custom inputs, for the PWM output. Maybe I am wrong.

PS : Your project is really awesome ! Nice to follow it !
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by puff »

In my case, the needle in the cluster was driven by voltage from 0V (full tank) to somewhat 12V (empty), but it's electronic circuit there, not just a winding. In your case (old-style dashboard) this winding is driven by current, so may be you don't need it that difficult, and simple pwm will do.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Tonight I realized 2 things can be true at the same time, I had low oil pressure and the sensor was dead. but now the dash gauge it displaying EXACTLY what the ECU tells it to...first time its ever been right I'm pretty sure. I just made a simple little calibration table with the pressure for each gauge line and the corresponding pwm value to make it happen. Seems to work perfect....now I need to wire it properly.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

and if anyone wonders, you can see the table I used to the left of the yellow circle.....gauge hash marks on the bottom row, PWM value top row. Pretty non-linear, I started with a 2 point cal but needed 5, pwm goes 25% at 0psi, 100% at 170psi. The sensor puts out about 8V not 12, which I guess makes sense so a low battery doesn't bugger the reading, measures 100ohm
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