Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

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Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:40 pm

So, "hello world" ... :mrgreen:

I'm little bit confused with trigger settings..

My engine has 60-2 crank wheel and one toth (eg. hole) on cam.
Crank has VR sensor and Cam has HALL.
It is "standard" 4cyl 4stroke engine, 4 injectors, but 4 ign. coils is planed soon. Now I have wasted module.

I will try to run on Frankenstein board, where I have connected all necessary sensors, 4 injectors and 2 ign outputs on Hi-LOW driver.
Can use FULL SEQUENTIAL mode.

VR CRANK is connected to MAX9926 on PC6 as Secondary.

..and now.... :arrow:
How must be set HALL + Pull-Up on PA8 .. ??
as a "Primary channel" ... or as a "Cam Sync"

and which "Trigger type" is right choice for my trigger wheel .. ??
1+60/2, 60/2 VW, 60/2 ... ??
(how are the differences between them..?? - poor documentations for them)

some attachments included ...

Thanks for any hint ....
Attachments
rus11.msl
(156.53 KiB) Downloaded 129 times
2019-03-05_12_08_12rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-05_12_08_12rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (27.82 KiB) Viewed 694 times
2019-03-05_11_53_18rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-05_11_53_18rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (75.21 KiB) Viewed 694 times
Last edited by JRD McLAREN on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:13 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:40 pm
(how are the differences between them..?? - poor documentations for them)
I see you are starting to understand rusEfi :)

Joking aside, just added a reference to https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title ... re:Trigger into TunerStudio project template so that more people have a chance to see https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title ... re:Trigger - https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/commit ... 0b56036616

https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title ... re:Trigger now clarifies the difference between 1+60/2, 60/2 VW, 60/2 hopefully?

I am here to help you if you have more questions on rusEfi. Thank you for playing with all this, I will also take all your money if you would like to donate, but you do not have to.
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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:40 am

Thanks for answer .. ;)

I found infos about trigger this evening ...
..and now I can try some combinations ..
..and I hope, it will start today ..

I have many experiences with VEMS, EMU, Ottomotive EasyEcu and IMF Master ECUs.
But I can try something new, more faster ... something with some potential ..

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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:42 am

Looking forward your feedback! I am sure you will have improvement suggestions
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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:33 pm

so... NO FUN
have no fuel.....

How can I calibrate TPS ..??? !!

I can't see any configuration window.....

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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:34 pm

TPS calibration is one of the menu items in the tunerstudio menu, above rusefi buttons
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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:08 pm

mm ..

Ok, I got it ...

...
but, I see....

someone of the settings are in rusEFI console ... not in TS
and otherside, someone in TS and hard to find in rusEFI console ... :roll:
..It is not so "user frendly" ...

And .. Injection time on cranking is read from "Base Fuel Pulse Width" value ... Right ... ?
Last edited by JRD McLAREN on Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by OrchardPerformance » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:25 pm

Yes, the base fuel pulse width option in the cranking window is the pulse width for cranking.

It is "base" because it can be modified using the more advanced options for cold start and hot restart.

If you flat map the "cranking coolant temperature multiplier" map to 1 then you will just get the base pulse width regardless of coolant temperature.
Mapping it to 5 at -40 and .8 at +100 like I have will mean you get 5x your base pulse at -40 and only 80% of your base pulse when hot. This is however engine/injector/setup specific.

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Re: Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:07 am

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:08 pm
mm ..

Ok, I got it ...

...
but, I see....

someone of settings are in rusEFI console ... not in TS
and otherside, someone in TS and hard to find in rusEFI console ... :roll:
..It is not so "user frendly" ...
I can and probably should duplicate tps calibration in rusefi own dialogs. I am open to suggestions jow to rearrange things :)
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:59 pm

SO ..

I can start, but it can't run ..
No Idle ...

..what is wrong, cause I see different TDC position on engine sniffer, on every count ...
Attachments
2019-03-12_18_31_42rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-12_18_31_42rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (70.47 KiB) Viewed 558 times
2019-03-12_16_38_59rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-12_16_38_59rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (61.5 KiB) Viewed 558 times
2019-03-12_16_33_10rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-12_16_33_10rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (45.42 KiB) Viewed 558 times
2019-03-12_16_17_18rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-12_16_17_18rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (58.1 KiB) Viewed 558 times
2019-03-05_22_26_26rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
2019-03-05_22_26_26rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (76.71 KiB) Viewed 558 times

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:02 pm

Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate.
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:56 pm

Ou... sorry .. I forgot ..

"on pictures" ... TDC is aprox on 12th tooth, and on the 2nd cycle is on 11th tooth .. for example ..

here is logs and ts project backup...
Attachments
rusefi2018_2019-03-12_20.49.14.tsproj.msl
(303.97 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
rus51.msl
(257.57 KiB) Downloaded 134 times
rus50.msl
(292.83 KiB) Downloaded 125 times
rus49.msl
(224.62 KiB) Downloaded 130 times

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:08 pm

rusefi2018_2019-03-12_20.49.14.tsproj.msl file name for a zip archive was a nice test of my telepathic abilities I am proud to have passed it! :lol:
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:10 pm

..no ..
just cut last .msl ... from filename ... :mrgreen:

EDITED:
..
you need some hardware / engine details .. ??

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:10 pm
you need some hardware / engine details .. ??
I think the least information I have the easier it is to help (that was sarcasm obviously).

Just added https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title ... fi_console section to the wiki.

Type enable trigger_details in rusEfi console to enable verbose synchronization logging. Post output from 'Messages" pane the forum. "print sync details to console" in TS enables the same output but the output still goes only to rusEfi console.
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:57 am

Your wiki is little bit "outdated" ... current TS looks like this ...
Screenshot_20190313_083158.png
Screenshot_20190313_083158.png (318.27 KiB) Viewed 537 times

I will try to change some cranking settings and some trigger settings ..
It looks like it can try to start on 2 pistons only ..
Screenshot_20190313_083418.png
Screenshot_20190313_083418.png (96.19 KiB) Viewed 537 times
I have similar problems before, when I can try to run my engine on VEMS ..
The problem was on different trigger wheel readings on HALL and on VR sensor.
"Big gap" look different on VR against HALL

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:46 pm

what vehicle is that? is this OEM wiring and sensors? can we please see a picture of you connectors between harness and rusEfi board?

how did you come up with this globalTriggerAngleOffset value?

do you have a timing gun?

did you have a chance to see verbose sync output in rusEfi console?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:21 pm

Ok ... (lets go .. )

It is "Red Top" , a.k.a. Opel/Vauxhall C20XE 2.0 litre 16Valve NA engine.
Modified.

Here is trigger wheel on crank, it is 60-2 OEM GM wheel. Most common on all 4cyl. GM engines.
VR sensor is used.
http://195.28.90.62/dohc/c20xe/DSCN3090.JPG

Cam sensor is HALL from VW , placed on blank plate for distributor. - sens on one hole in cam, position is adjustable.
http://195.28.90.62/dohc/c20xe/DSCN1961s.JPG
http://195.28.90.62/dohc/c20xe/DSCN1962s.JPG
Image
http://195.28.90.62/dohc/c20xe/DSCN1889s.JPG

It has 4 injectors on ITB, and one wasted spark module
Image

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:30 pm

russian wrote: how did you come up with this globalTriggerAngleOffset value?

do you have a timing gun?
Yes, i have timing gun.
HW TDC position is aprox 10 teeth after GAP
(clockwise rotation)

I'm try to setup -56 or -60 and 120 or 124 deg
(some standalone ECUs work with 120deg otherone on -60)
(this is "value", with I have a problem, How must be to set in rusefi .. ?? - ---negative XY deg .. ?? )
..but I will recheck it again...
did you have a chance to see verbose sync output in rusEfi console?
..Maybe ... I must try .. tomorrow ...

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:40 pm

Wiring ...

Complete engine wiring is modified stock engine loom, previously used with VEMS ecu. Working many years .. before..
(Cam and Crank sensors have shield cables)

Current rusefi board is wired into "original ECU's" PCB ...
http://195.28.90.62/dohc/rusEFI/DSCN4719.JPG

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:01 pm

Trigger scope from IMF Master Ignition ECU ..

RED is Crank VR
ORANGE is Cam HALL
Attachments
Image111.jpg
Adjusted CAM sensor
Image111.jpg (225.69 KiB) Viewed 515 times
Image02.jpg
Image02.jpg (278.49 KiB) Viewed 515 times
Last edited by JRD McLAREN on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:41 pm

Why are you using "60/2 VW" which is "VW special understanding of 60/2 with a wide tooth instead of of just missing tooth." and not "Universal True 60/2"? Your crank image does not seem to contain the VW special tooth. https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title ... #VW_60.2F2

@ do you have any pictures of what I call "special" VW 60/2 or is this all just in my head?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:43 pm

@russian

Do you know differences between HALL reading and VR (+vr chip) reading/translating signals .. ??

(it is the difference, what I'm talking about, for the first time)

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 pm

trigger wheel from "modern" VW
https://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php ... 6&p=577903

and I will give you photo of VW 1.8T crank ... tomorrow ...

Edited: ..
guugle found something ...

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... SX679_.jpg
https://4.allegroimg.com/original/03ed6 ... f65f6170e4

Basically, it is the same 60-2 wheel. ...

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:16 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:43 pm
@russian

Do you know differences between HALL reading and VR (+vr chip) reading/translating signals .. ??

(it is the difference, what I'm talking about, for the first time)
I am not sure what you are saying here :(

Please try both 60/2 VW and Universal 60/2, please report what you see on the console.
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:43 pm

So ...
I have Idle .. but on batch / wasted mode only..

Sequential not work. Injector3 and Injector4 spray, Inj1 and Inj2 not.

60/2 trigger not work
60/2VW works ...
(this is the difference VR / HALL)

Let me explain.
VR is AC (alternating current) generator...
HALL is switch (open /closed colector transistor)

Hall copy / or invert tooth shape directly...
But, VR is zero crossing refference signal / voltage ...
All signal come from zero to negative voltage is transcoded as (logical) zero.
All signal come from zero to positive voltage is transcoded as logical 1.
...and now look at IMF scope ... :arrow:

Big Gap or missing tooth on trigger wheel is transcoded on VR as one double gap and one double tooth
..but in real world, we have one biiiiiiiiig gap ... ( - two toth)

(May I wrote in on paper .. ?? )
Last edited by JRD McLAREN on Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:46 pm

I'm think, the right name for your trigger wheel templates are:

60/2 Hall sensor (60/2)
60/2 VR sensor (60/2 VW)


You need make HALL and VR switch button in your's rusefi firmware.
cause readings between HALL an VR are different.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:00 pm

VW 1.8T 20Valve Crank ...
..and same 60/2 trigger wheel as my ...

..and many others ...
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:42 am

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:43 pm
Big Gap or missing tooth on trigger wheel is transcoded on VR as one double gap and one double tooth
..but in real world, we have one biiiiiiiiig gap ... ( - two tooth)
I am starting to think that you might be right here...
Part of the challenge is that I never had a 60/2 VR in my life. @ is the only 60/2 not far from me and that's why I called it VW, he has a VW :)
Let me ask @ and @ to comment on this since they both run 60/2 and they could be affected by all this. I guess they are OKish since they use "use only rising edge" at which point both shapes look the same?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:43 am

PS: sounds like I am proposing to try with useOnlyRisingEdgeForTrigger. There is even a hint there "VR sensors are only precise on rising front"
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