Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by darxfame » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:29 am

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:00 pm
VW 1.8T 20Valve Crank ...
..and same 60/2 trigger wheel as my ...

..and many others ...
Can you send me the part number of your sensor? Maybe you can start with my settings(but no use my pin settings, i have another board)
i have crank vr sensor https://avtopasker.ru/goods/7537 and cam hall sensor. https://www.avtoall.ru/datchik_fazy_vaz ... _k-080367/
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:55 am

russian wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:42 am
I am starting to think that you might be right here...
Part of the challenge is that I never had a 60/2 VR in my life. @ is the only 60/2 not far from me and that's why I called it VW, he has a VW :)
Let me ask @ and @ to comment on this since they both run 60/2 and they could be affected by all this. I guess they are OKish since they use "use only rising edge" at which point both shapes look the same?
Look at this picture ....

Image

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:22 pm

darxfame wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:29 am
Can you send me the part number of your sensor? Maybe you can start with my settings(but no use my pin settings, i have another board)
i have crank vr sensor https://avtopasker.ru/goods/7537 and cam hall sensor. https://www.avtoall.ru/datchik_fazy_vaz ... _k-080367/
trigger.jpg
I have many sensors, ..
Old original one but still working is BOSCH 0 261 210 030
Now I have VR from Daewoo / Chevrolet Lacetti OE: 96253542 or 25182450
My sensors works fine ... ;)

Your engine work on full sequential mode ..?? (2x360deg rotation /720deg)
or on wasted / batch mode .. ?? (1x360deg rotation) ..
.. cause I see " 4 stroke without cam sensor " . ...

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:32 pm

Just added
rusEfi trigger configuration is the most confusing part of rusEfi configuration unfortunately.

If rusEfi does not know your exact overall trigger shape and you use composite setup with crank sensor driving RPM and single tooth cam sensor providing phase information, that's considered "4 stroke without cam with VVT". Even if you do not have VVT :(
to https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title ... ftware:VVT
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:41 pm

..Wow .. OK ...
..
this setup in rusefi is totally differnet from all others ecu, which I have ... :)

So now I look at Abricos engine, and he has old VW 2.0 litre 8Valve engine,
and this engine has same 60-2 tr.wheel as my.. on VR sensor.

but, Thanks for advice.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:43 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:41 pm
..Wow .. OK ...
..
this setup in rusefi is totally differnet from all others ecu, which I have ... :)
I am aware of the problem but I do not have a better layout for the configuration dialog at the moment :(
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:47 pm

...make some "CHECKBOX" .. for CAM sensor .. maybe ..??
...

But, I's OK at this moment...

My engine run, and is not problem to make some tests with CAM an CRANK configurations. :)

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:52 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:47 pm
...make some "CHECKBOX" .. for CAM sensor .. maybe ..??
Please confirm that you have a complete solution not just "sure it must be easy just add a checkbox" :)
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:55 pm

OK ..

but, I have not to much time for it at this time ...
I'll give you a feedback. ...

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:56 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:55 pm
but, I have not to much time for it at this time ...
Once you have time please suggest a complete solution which would work for all configurations
2 stroke and 4 stroke
well-defined shapes and composite shapes
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:00 pm

.. 2 stroke engine not require CAM sensor, they don't have CAM .. in most setups ....
(except Detroit Diesel for example .. )

..(and I'm not good programmer ... :( ) ..

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:12 pm

one POSITIVE UPDATE ...

IT RUN ... in SEQUENTIAL MODE ...

Trigger type - 60/2 VW
Operation mode - 4stroke without cam sensor
Use only rising edge - false
VVT mode - Second half

Thanks for all ... for advice..

..and sorry for my stupid questions ... :mrgreen:
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2019-03-15_16_29_52rpm_0_maf_0.0.png
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:14 pm

We need a video and a picture of the board! :)

These are not stupid questions, we need to make this less confusing. Actually a very small change which would help a bit could be to rename

"4 stroke with cam sensor" into "4 stroke with well-know cam sensor position"
"4 stroke without cam sensor" into "4 stroke without cam sensor or with unclear can sensor position"

Does it makes sense? Can you propose a better wording?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:35 pm

It will be OK ... (for me)
I have no idea, how is defined cam and crank in current rusefi source ...
..at this moment ...

and try to "fix" this one .. also ..
JRD McLAREN wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:46 pm
I'm think, the right name for your trigger wheel templates are:

60/2 with Hall sensor (60/2)
60/2 with VR sensor (60/2 VW)
"STOP button" is great feature also ... .. as your Engine sniffer .. ;)

If you can see any other trigger wheel templates, try download this: https://imfsoft.com/files/master/softwa ... UV8_44.zip

Thanks ... for your time ..again ...

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:36 pm

60/2 with Hall sensor (60/2) - is there such a thing in reality?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:49 pm

this picture
https://rusefi.com/images/triggers/trigger_8.png
looks like standard BOSCH 60-2 wheel, read by HALL sensor ...
..it may be inverted, for some kind / type of HALL sensors ...

and this one
https://rusefi.com/images/triggers/trigger_20.png
looks like BOSCH 60-2 wheel, read and decoded by VR sensor + LM1815 or MAX9924 - 7

..as I wrote above ...

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:50 pm

Appreciate your input, this is now part of https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/707
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:34 pm

russian wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:36 pm
60/2 with Hall sensor (60/2) - is there such a thing in reality?
...some OPEL / Vauxhall car have HALL sensor on crank ...
...and some new VWAG have this combination ..
...and some users can have they own sensor and wheel combination ..
DSC_0385 (1024x576).jpg
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Last edited by JRD McLAREN on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:27 pm

How many narrow red logic output VR tooth are there and how many wide red logic output VR tooth? 57 narrow + one wide?

Obviously 58 narrow and zero wide in real life physical wheel and same 58 narrow and zero wide on Hall logic output signal I hope?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:41 pm

Yes, you right ..
It is 57 narrow + 1 wide

In VR decoded logic is +1 wide tooth ...
Full scope of raw VR is on this picture download/file.php?id=4416

It is from my 60-2 trig. wheel .. on VR
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:47 pm

..we talking about this ..
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:55 pm

Yes, the above issue is work in progress.
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:07 pm

4 Metal = real trigger wheel shape - green color
3 Hall = no Hall signal on the picture
2 VR = black "line" is the raw signal from VR sensor recorded on scope ..

Green one = is TTL signal coming out from MAX9926 (or any other vr controloer)

"zero crossing" are signal edges ...
(zero aka 0 have grey color)
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:10 pm

Please join slack see viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1198 for details
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by ZHoob2004 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:02 pm

How many RPM is this being tested at? Could this be another case of the max8266 MAX9926 automatic gain issue?
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:08 pm

VR scope graph is recorded at "starter" .. 120-150 rpm aprox.
Could this be another case of the max8266 automatic gain issue?
what do you mean ..?? spikes ..?? or "different tooth readings" .. ??

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:29 pm

Thank you! I will now edit history a bit to reduce confusion
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by ZHoob2004 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:06 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:08 pm
Could this be another case of the max8266 automatic gain issue?
what do you mean ..?? spikes ..?? or "different tooth readings" .. ??
Never mind, I did the math and I believe you would have to be turning at less than 12RPM for that feature to become a problem. More of an issue for extremely low tooth counts I guess.

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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:28 pm

JRD McLAREN wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:08 pm
what do you mean ..??
MAX9926 has some watchdog at 80 or 85ms, this is becoming an issue during cranking if you have very few tooth on your trigger.
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Re: Basic / Trigger setting problem - little bit confused

Post by JRD McLAREN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:37 pm

..Oh ..
I know what Zhoob2004 mean with this context ...

If we have less than 12 tooth on trigger wheel, then HALL sensor is better to use ..
otherside..
If we have 58 and use HALL, then we can have problem on high rpm...
( "old hall" / type of sensors are slow )

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