V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

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mck1117
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:56 am
we are flirting with delayed ECU shutdown
proteus hardware doesn't support delayed shutdown
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Good to know, most of my car is analog using relays so a simple flip flop to invert the 12v I'm guessing will work. I can also find solenoids that are normally open and closed so I'm not draining battery hold a solenoid open.

I never got the air boxes with the engines so I don't have the original temp sensors. I'll see if I can dig up the Ohmage, in any case if you say they work I'll make sure to get at least one so the Proteus knows what's coming into the intake.
Last edited by Lambo97 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Lambo97 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:03 am
Good to know, most of my car is analog using relays so a simple flip flop to invert the 12v I'm guessing will work. I can also find solenoids that are normally open and closed so I'm not draining battery hold a solenoid open.
Wait, why are we inverting something? Why not just let the ECU control them? It's super easy to program in things like "while the engine is running, turn on this output".
Lambo97 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:03 am
I never got the air boxes with the engines so I don't have the original temp sensors. I'll see if I can dig up the Ohmage, in any case if you say they work I'll make sure to get at least one so the Porteous knows what's coming into the intake.
A great option for combined MAP + IAT sensors are the Bosch TMAP sensors like this one: https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/1721

There are a few variants with different pressure ranges, and they're easy to find on lots of post-2000 VW/BMW/Ford/Mercedes/etc vehicles in the junkyard.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Darn, I already bought a set of GM style MAP sensors. This also begs the question so of sensor placement. Does the intake temp sensor HAVE to be in the intake after the ETB or can it be in front of the ETB similar to where a MAF would live? I've already packed the engine up so drilling into the intake would require some careful vacuuming not to get any shards down the intake.

Thanks for your help.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Lambo97 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:32 am
Darn, I already bought a set of GM style MAP sensors. This also begs the question so of sensor placement. Does the intake temp sensor HAVE to be in the intake after the ETB or can it be in front of the ETB similar to where a MAF would live? I've already packed the engine up so drilling into the intake would require some careful vacuuming not to get any shards down the intake.

Thanks for your help.
Before the throttle is no problem. Mine is in the pipe between the intercooler and throttle, maybe a foot upstream of the throttle. All factory MAF sensors have the IAT built in.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

OK I'm having trouble finding a temp sensor that is compatible with the Proteus. I don't have the BMW ones, and since they don't thread into anything I can't use them. What Japanese or American threaded sensor would be most compatible for coolant temp and air temp?

I guess since the Miata seems popular here or mustang I could find those nice and cheap. What Ohm-age does the Proteus accept or is that tunable in the rusEFI software?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

The resistance curve is configurable, but there's a sort of "reasonable range" that we can detect most easily with the best accuracy. The ECU has an internal 2.7k pullup resistor on the temperature inputs, so resistances at sensible temperatures around 10k to 100 ohms are best.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

"Miata Is Always The Answer" is very relevant for purposes of CLT sensor selection. Also VAG.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

So based on what everyone is saying, I'm thinking to start using the Proteus's built in feature to turn on and off things like evap purge valves and rad fans. Where I used to have a mercury switch I'll flip the fan relays. In the Proteus manual it shows pin 12 as rad fan output which is great.

One item I can't seem to figure out what it is:

Main relay? I don't have a main relay, should I leave this output unused? I will be providing 12V to the computer to power up via key so I'm guessing I can safely ignore the main relay output.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

the V12 has coolant temp, knock sensors, etc all built in
the only thing you need to add is the MAP or TMAP sensor
and you can plumb it into the tube that links the two manifolds together,
or drill a 12 MM hole in the intake manifold and weld on a piece of bar stock
like this
https://racespeconline.com/products/bosch-map-t-weld-bung

thats all i have done on my V12-- one hole for the TMAP
everything else is stock

the main relay is useful to power the spark coils, etc
its worth wiring up a relay and fuse for this ... to isolate the ECU and other parts of engine management
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Interesting, I've been running a carb for 20 years, forgot that isolating components is a good idea. I've isolated the other high drain components such as Pump, Fogs, AC, so your saying the coils should be on it's own relay also? OK I'll add one.

As for the sensors, I'm using 2 VDO 1.8 NPT units drilled into the M73 water jacket where the M70 used to have the sensors. 1 for dash and 1 for the computer.

I've got the old school GM map sensor already plumbed to one of the intakes using the original vacuum elbow. Do you think it would make any sense to cross plumb the 2 intakes?

I'll post some pics soon, the motor is days away from going in and getting the sensors wired.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Finally getting to the nitty gritty.

New Optima deep cycle battery to keep the Proteus and rusEFI happy. Also mounted a new relay box on the frame.
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Cleaned up and remove old useless wiring.
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Mercedes Coils mounted on the frame rail.
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IAT on the intake.
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Finished soldering the wideband headers.
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First boot of TunerStudio.
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General question to anyone running TunerStudio MS, If I was going to buy the TunerStudio MS would you also pickup MegaLog Viewer? Benefits?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Had to re-drill and tap the water manifold of the M73 in the stock M70 positions. they left 2 nice flat bosses for me to drill and tap 1/8 NPT for the VDO sensors. Based on what Matt says the VDO ohm range is nice and low not like the other sensors I bought that were up in the 73K ohm range. Problem is they are chrome and they are nicely stuck in the aluminum. Broke right in half. Drilled and tapped them back to 1/8 NPT lets see if the VDo's will be water tight. If not JB weld and new threads.
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bill
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

how is it going there?
running yet?
I just acquired a new V12 for the club...

Jag XJS
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Nice Bill now we can see how the heck your going to fire that beast up!
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Update 47.36.....

Neat box we found on Amazon that can hold 2 Wideband controllers.
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Fuel pump installed. It was a carb before so this is new.
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Motor with Clutch and flywheel installed. Using the M73 automatic starter ring, the flywheel is machined to sit on top of it.
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The Flywheel
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Motor going in for the final time.
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Mating the transmission
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Plug cables installed.
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Transmission cables installed, Going to remove the rust and paint them today.
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Black Car update, Motor was put in last weekend.
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Attachments
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Looks nice with the red cables. He will be running 2 GM early 90's wasted spark coil packs mounted on top of the transmission.
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He's lucky he has a door to be able to service the front of the motor from inside the cabin.
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We are getting there. We are working on the shift cables right now, tomorrow I plan to move on to the exhaust targeting early next week to get the exhaust resolved. Average work time per day is between 3 and 5 hours. Every nut, washer, bolt has to be sorted out as a lot of it was missing from the donor parts. Figuring out mounting positions for MAP and other components like the fuel regulator are time consuming. You're always trying to find the best places to mount hoses and components that make it accessible and safe under vibration.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

I just want to point out this is Andrey's fault for creating such good software and MK1117 for creating the Proteus that caused all this mess.
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I'm So MAD..........

:evil:

not.

:D
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by dbh97 »

Am I remembering correctly that those coil packs are dumb coils that need an external driver? Maybe you've addressed this already.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

That is a good question. I believe the Toyota DH61 Ignitor does this job. Andrey correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Yup, that would indeed be the sort of external ignitor you need.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

That's a 3 channel igniter with only two channels wired by me for distributors. If you have wasted spark dumb coils it looks like you would need 6 channels total, i.e. you would need to add another Toyota igniter and add the missing wiring?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Ok that makes sense. General question out there, does anyone know of some cheap ignitor so I can eventually go full sequential? We have no wrecking yards open right now so I would have Amazon it. Thanks.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:30 am
Ok that makes sense. General question out there, does anyone know of some cheap ignitor so I can eventually go full sequential? We have no wrecking yards open right now so I would have Amazon it. Thanks.
The go-to is coils from the GM LS. Plentiful supply, smart coils so no external igniter required. Fitted on all GM V8 trucks/vans/corvette/camaro vehicles starting in about 1997.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

mck1117 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:47 am
Lambo97 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:30 am
Ok that makes sense. General question out there, does anyone know of some cheap ignitor so I can eventually go full sequential? We have no wrecking yards open right now so I would have Amazon it. Thanks.
The go-to is coils from the GM LS. Plentiful supply, smart coils so no external igniter required. Fitted on all GM V8 trucks/vans/corvette/camaro vehicles starting in about 1997.
this is what i have on my BMW V12

i have mazda COP on my v12 jag

GM also makes a compact wasted spark setup for the V6 engines --2010 on... no ignitor required
2 of them and you are good for 12 cyl
Last edited by bill on Thu May 20, 2021 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

I'm $300 in already with coils and it seems i may have chosen wrong. So the cheapest fastest solution is to give my ignitor to one of the cars and get him setup using the old school GM coil packs. And then buy a set of new LS coils one per cylinder to allow for sequential spark. I'm avoiding COP because I have a nice bar right beside the engine I can mount the coils to stop them from bouncing around on the motor, and being directly above a major heat source. Now to figure out the pin outs from the Proteus to drive the LS coils.....
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by dbh97 »

Bill, is the tune on REO the one that ran the engine? It's set up as wasted spark.
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=307
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

OK so I've dug into the LS coil pack and found this diagram for the LS2 (which seems to be the same as the LS1, etc..)

It's 4 pin and seem self explanatory and includes the igniter inside. Mck1117, is this what you would recommend for the Proteus? One pack per cylinder running full sequential?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

dbh97 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:34 pm
Bill, is the tune on REO the one that ran the engine? It's set up as wasted spark.
https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=307
You can run wasted spark even with individually wired coils. That's how my race car is set up. Only a crank sensor, four coils, four outputs from the ECU, but it fires pairs of outputs together, emulating wasted spark ignition coils.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

mine was set for wasted spark initially... since i didn't have the cam sensor hooked up yet... but the bmw has a built in cam sensor, so if you hook it up, you can run full sequential spark / fuel... which is what i am shooting for real soon
the sensor is on the drivers side bank, near the front... behind the cam wheel ...
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