V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

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Lambo97
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V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Lets start off right, show the cars and what we're trying to accomplish. There is a misnomer in the kit car world that ever home built replica or custom car in general is a kit car. The 2 cars we will be modifying in this thread started around in the year 2000 and have over 100K in custom fabricated parts, and thousands of hours of work to to build. There is no kit and that is why we are here.

Both cars look gorgeous both sadly currently have GM V8's. They look the part but the sound and experience of the drive is not there. We are glad we found rusEFI and the Proteus board to allow us to swap our motors for something more realistic.

We have the motors, and we have purchased Andrey's V0.2 board for testing and setup. In our next post I'll go over some of the considerations for the motor and mid engine setup we need to get the cars working.
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

This is my motor I picked up last weekend. I've ordered a engine gasket set and have already started sourcing a flywheel and clutch setup. Our problem relates to have to use a mid engine transmission out of a Boxster. Specifically the Audi O12 that has the differential gear in the correct orientation for forward travel when the engine is in front of the trans.
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Unlike Bill of the "V12 Club thread" we will most likely toss the M73 Flywheel, and install the M70 front Pulley. It has the correct timing ring for us to install our hall sensors.
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

PMC motorsport makes an adaptor to mate the M70,M73,S70 etc. to the Audi style bellhousing. The bell housing bolt pattern is the same as the 944, 928, 4000, Boxster. We want the late 90's to early 2000's 5 speed transmission, not the later Boxster 6 speed manual. Authenticity is important. The motor in it's old age is around 300 or so HP, and the Boxster transmission has been know to go racing with upwards of 400HP so we should be in the ball park for the combination.

PMC motorsport has an adaptor to mate engine and transmission.
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mk e
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:19 am
The motor in it's old age is around 300 or so HP, and the Boxster transmission has been know to go racing with upwards of 400HP so we should be in the ball park for the combination.
very cool project.

Be a little careful with that math....hp makes you go fast, torque breaks stuff....and big engines make big torque if not always big hp (hp=torquexRPM/5252)....I learned that lesson the hard way some years back, it only took me 3 transmission to finally get it. I know the porsche guys are big on adding turbos and that adds torque, so maybe dig a bit on boosted cars and what if any trans mods are needed? That would probably be closer to your huge engine application. I have a buddy with an LS in a 944...so 500ish hp and maybe 400ftlbs and that trans lives...as long as he's careful with it, he seems much gentler on trans #2 but the car is a blast.
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

The first of the sensors we will try to sort out is the Crank Position Sensor or CPS. We've sourced one front timing cover for the M70 to compliment the M70 front pulley.
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We may not be so lucky for a second one so we may simply make our own CPS sensor mount.
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The BMW original sensor is a 3 wire which I'm presuming is a digital hall effect sensor. From what I've researched if the sensor is 2 wire it's an analog reluctor based sensor and the BMW doesn't seem to have that. The main difference between the hall effect and the reluctor sensor is the hall effect will output a square wave from 0v to 5v, where the analog reluctor sensor will output a sin wave.
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I'll get my hands on a BMW crank sensor in the next few weeks to figure out what type of sensor it is. Andrey has already verified the Proteus works the the original BMW CPS so I'm hoping his rusEFI V12m73 config is already set to the correct setting.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

That's a clean engine! I see distributors are there and spark plug wires are in place so first run could be with OEM ignition system? What year is the donor?

Relevant wiki links https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-M73-v12-on-Proteus and https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/BMW-e38-750

I am not sure if I see the expected 5xBLACK and 5xGREY ECU plugs. Anyway the wiring diagram should help you remove many unneeded wires like transmission control etc.
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

mk e wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:41 am

Be a little careful with that math....hp makes you go fast, torque breaks stuff....
You are correct. I purchased the transmission from a drag racer that was going to build a Boxster drag car with it, but then decided to go faster by installing a Tesla Performance motor. He never used the transmission and has had experience with this generation of transmission. As you can see in the diagram the shafts are quite large. Our goal will be a streetable cruiser but some spirited accelerations may occur.
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bill
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

those adapter plates push the tranny and block apart more than stock...
so you have to figure out the depth of the input shaft... and the clutch/flywheel location, etc
probably gonna need a custom flywheel at least...
NASCAR clutches are cheap on eBay...
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

That is my biggest problem right now. The adaptor pushes the transmission 1 3/8 away from the engine. I was thinking to use the RHD Australian flywheel with most likely a spacer between the crank and the flywheel. Also the spacer would extend into the clutch area to allow for a pilot bearing to center the transmission input shaft.

https://racehead.com.au/product/bmw-lightweight-performance-flywheel-m60-v8/

Bill I see your using the M60 dual mass. will you be spacing the flywheel out for an adaptor or will your BMW transmission work fine mated to your V12?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:05 am
That is my biggest problem right now. The adaptor pushes the transmission 1 3/8 away from the engine. I was thinking to use the RHD Australian flywheel with most likely a spacer between the crank and the flywheel. Also the spacer would extend into the clutch area to allow for a pilot bearing to center the transmission input shaft.

Ferrari did something like that on the 400iA to adapt a GM TH400 to the 400i engine. The flywheel was in the stock position but they added a spacer and mounted a flex plate to it for the torquconverter....it was 2 or 3" long. It located to the flywheel into the pilot bearing hole iirc, extra long flywheel bolts held it. So even factories do stuff like that, at least for low volume production.

The transaxle has a starter mount? Will the Porsche starter engage the BMW flywheel? and will it come out in the right location for both the clutch and started to work? I really struggled with all this on my swap is why I ask.....I ended up making a flywheel, and clutch shaft then using a multidisc race clutch with the shortest hydraulic throwout bearing I could get and switching to a gear reduction starter that was small enough to relocate where I needed it....as I say, I struggled a bit so now I know most of the question to ask BEFORE cutting anything :oops:
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

Lambo97 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:05 am

Bill I see your using the M60 dual mass. will you be spacing the flywheel out for an adaptor or will your BMW transmission work fine mated to your V12?
i also considered the race head flywheel...and i may do it someday... once everything else comes together ... but for now, its the dual mass crap flywheel...

i have been lucky on the tranny.. see the build for photos...

the v-8 tranny fits the v12 no problem, only had to move the starter bump and drill some new holes
the stock guts-- v-8 flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, all fit together no problem -- v-12 starter works... i bought a new pilot bearing for $5 and it works too
all the internal guts work fine
a few hours of welding on the bellhousing and it will be done...

i reckon a custom flywheel/clutch is in your future... but you do have the bellhousing worked out, which is nice...
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

Lambo97 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:05 am
That is my biggest problem right now. The adaptor pushes the transmission 1 3/8 away from the engine. I was thinking to use the RHD Australian flywheel with most likely a spacer between the crank and the flywheel.
remember if you do that, you lose the starter engagement ... have to move the starter 35MM out, or figure some other way to make that work ...
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

question....

If you use a race head/ bmw flywheel, and pressure plate,
can your porsche clutch plate fit inside the pressure plate?
most those clutches are just "spline pattern" and "diameter "
everything else does not matter... since they are all similar thickness/ build

If that setup works, then the best bet may be to setup the internals like this ...

and make the bellhousing depth work for this setup
however you can make the bellhousing fit...
probably means cutting and welding..
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

You are correct, I'm working on 2 solutions. Both use the M73 to Audi O1X adaptor so no bellhousing work would be needed.

The flywheel / Clutch is the challenge now. 2 options are.

1. Use RHD flywheel, cut off starter ring that comes with the RHD flywheel and space it forward on top of the automatic starter ring. With this setup I would have to machine a pilot bearing to extend out from the crank center out to the Audi input shaft as it starts 10mm inside the bellhousing. May need a spacer between the starter gear and the flywheel.

2. Same as above but use the PMC M60 Flywheel on top of the automatic starter gear but it doesn't' have the starter teeth to begin with so no machining required to take that off. Only issue is that it's $200 more expensive that the RHD so it's coming down to what will it cost to machine the parts I need to reduce cost.

Once I get the adaptor plate to put the engine trans together I think I will see what is possible and then start doing the costing analysis.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

The reason I asked if the transaxle has a starter mount is if so it would be stupid simple and cheap to use the Porsche flywheel, clutch, starter. You have 1.375" for a simple adapter, think wheel adapter, that bolts to the crank and the Porsche flywheel bolts to that. Done.
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

mk e wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:33 pm
The reason I asked if the transaxle has a starter mount is if so it would be stupid simple and cheap to use the Porsche flywheel, clutch, starter. You have 1.375" for a simple adapter, think wheel adapter, that bolts to the crank and the Porsche flywheel bolts to that. Done.
Yes this is the same problem as Bill has as the Boxster uses a dual mass flywheel. Trying to stay away from that.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:28 am

Yes this is the same problem as Bill has as the Boxster uses a dual mass flywheel. Trying to stay away from that.
why? Not breaking your crankshaft is a good thing. The dual mass flywheel replaced the normal harmonic damper....you need 1 or the other if you want the engine to live. Or if you must use a racing boxer flywheel right? but sticking with prosche stuff will be WAY easier and save you the kind of hell you're headed for
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Yes, I'm looking at all options at this point. I've ordered the PMC adaptor should be here in a week or so. Good thing about the adaptor is it will get me close to center as it was designed for both the engine and the Audi trans of the Boxster. The M70/73 are fine without dual mass as they never came with it and both have dampers. I have a friend that machined his own flywheel for the M70, only issue is it's big and heavy and there seems to be a bunch of flywheels for engine that bolt up and like you said might just need a spacer.

In any case the black Countach car has been gutted and is almost ready to test fit the motor. I'll get some pics of that up soon. We will use the car as a run stand with the goal of running it before the New Year.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:49 am
goal of running it before the New Year.
Very exciting!

How mechanically similar are black and yellow cars?

Is it an Ontario license plate on the blue Kia? Any international airports around? Can I drive around the block once Canada allows American tourists?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Reminder about Nissan throttle bodies. Ideally you need Nissan bolts to have right length & hex cap. https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Vault-Of-Electronic-Throttle-Bodies-ETB
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:49 am
The M70/73 are fine without dual mass as they never came with it and both have dampers. I have a friend that machined his own flywheel for the M70, only issue is it's big and heavy and there seems to be a bunch of flywheels for engine that bolt up and like you said might just need a spacer.
If you have a damper then great, you have freedom. My point was its relatively hard to relocate a starter drive and starter is a normal wear item so ideally you'd have a stock or mostly unmodified starter to allow future replacement.

The flywheel you posted has a bolt-on ring gear, so space the flywheel to the trans then space the ring gear back to the starter is an option....not sure I'd trust anything but a ring type spacer though to keep it aligned and secure.

I'll give you this, because I fall for it all the time. Perfect is the opposite of good becasue perfect is never finished, and better is the oh so seductive sister of perfect, when she call you its hard to even realize where your headed. Its so easy to get caught up in making things better that the project never gets finished...hell, I've been at mine for 13 years now and still haven't completely learned that lesson.

Looking good and can't wait to see it running!
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

AndreyB wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:57 am
Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:49 am
goal of running it before the New Year.
Very exciting!

How mechanically similar are black and yellow cars?

Is it an Ontario license plate on the blue Kia? Any international airports around? Can I drive around the block once Canada allows American tourists?
Hahaha they are both the same tube frame with Chevy parts. The Black one was a 350 TPI, mine Yellow was a carb cause I started the project back in the late 90s. Back then I looked at the M70 but already had a Chevy L98 for $100 so I went that way.

I'm near Toronto International so you can go for a drive anytime.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

shared a link to this thread and a couple of the pics on GRM as an alternative to a guy who appears to have posted a thread about a fake lambo kit he's working on.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/45k-countach-boxster/178575/page4/#post3143425
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

mk e wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:34 pm
Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:49 am
The M70/73 are fine without dual mass as they never came with it and both have dampers. I have a friend that machined his own flywheel for the M70, only issue is it's big and heavy and there seems to be a bunch of flywheels for engine that bolt up and like you said might just need a spacer.
I'll give you this, because I fall for it all the time. Perfect is the opposite of good because perfect is never finished, and better is the oh so seductive sister of perfect, when she call you its hard to even realize where your headed. Its so easy to get caught up in making things better that the project never gets finished...hell, I've been at mine for 13 years now and still haven't completely learned that lesson.

Looking good and can't wait to see it running!
Yes I've been working on this car since 1998 and it is never done. At least to my liking, I can always make it better, but like you I have learned that it doesn't matter how much you finish, you have to come to the realization that there is no perfection.

So my goal is to have in on the road every year now no matter what I "Think" isn't finished.

That in hand, we have found a company that can mill us a flywheel. Drift HQ will take our measurements and mill a Flywheel that sits on top of our flex plate/start gear, and will have a pilot bearing mate with the Audi/Boxster O12 transmission. They seem to be on the ball and have sent me this spec sheet to fill out so we may be over this hump as they will also build us a 240mm sprung Boxster disc with some generic pressure plate that fits the combo.
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Haha, wonder who that would be????

Well here are some more pics to show the quality of the builds. The red car behind mine has about 400K into it, mainly because he farmed out the frame and the body. He purchased the original rims at 50K..... it just got expensive cause he wanted to finish the car no matter the cost. Our cars are mostly tube with Chevy components. We work about 150 hours a year to drive about 20 hours. All of the cars in that photo started around 1999 and we are now down to the nitty gritty of not being satisfied with the Trip reset button being on the glass and trying to relocat it to the dash were it should be!!

The constant thing we get is why spend so much money on a replica and not the real car. We have many friends with real Diablos, Countachs, Aventadors that roll with us but most of the time they are scared to drive there cars. Aluminum body, original engine heads are 10K a piece and they are no better that a BMW V12 dual over head cam in my opinion.

I can sit on my rear deck lid, I've taken my car to the cottage on a dirt road (slowly), and the #1 problem with 90% of the kitcars out there is never get finished/road worthy. We all had the perseverance to finish the cars to a level that was acceptable as a replica and not just a Fiero interior with a Ferrari body. (Love Fiero's by the way had 3)

True replicas.
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Just in case anyone asks the Diablo GTR hood is a valid addition to the Roadster as there was a one off racing Roaster that Lamborghini wanted to prove the stiffness of the car, so they took it racing. Plus I have 3 radiators in the car and needed the cooling.

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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:45 pm
We have many friends with real Diablos, Countachs, Aventadors that roll with us but most of the time they are scared to drive there cars.
Exactly, let cars stay practical.

I see you have many friends in need of M70/M73 engine management :)
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

I have a feeling the red car guy will cry once he sees our cars running. He spent 9K last year strengthening his 915 transmission to handle his LS. I think we will be under 5K to install and run the V12s. So yes Andrey we will need a harness or 2 more! If you want to start now on a second one, we are ready to purchase one when you have it available. We are getting close to mounting one of the motors (few weeks) and once we get the geometry down, I'll gut my engine bay and start the work. I'll see if Rob Black car owner can shoot me some pics of the engine bay empty.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:11 pm

That in hand, we have found a company that can mill us a flywheel. Drift HQ will take our measurements and mill a Flywheel that sits on top of our flex plate/start gear, and will have a pilot bearing mate with the Audi/Boxster O12 transmission. They seem to be on the ball and have sent me this spec sheet to fill out so we may be over this hump as they will also build us a 240mm sprung Boxster disc with some generic pressure plate that fits the combo.
Now you're talking winning plan. :!:

The clutch....is that a custom disc you're talking about having made? I ask because that is a wear item you might light to be able to easily replace....its what, 360ft-lb touque the engine puts out? Depending on spec the Boxster is 310ft-lb? You'd probably be ok with a an OEM boxster clutch if you chose right. Then your only really custom piece is the new flywheel and rock auto can over -night deliver replacements for the rest.

If you can find something, no idea what Porsche has or what they make for them, a multidisc clutch is pretty nice for the reduced pedal pressure it delivers. The racing versions can be a bit digital (although mine isn't too bad, 7.25" tilton 3 disc) but, pedal effort wise it can be a night and day difference, mine is no more effort and a honda civic....its very easy to get used to NOT working hard to shift.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

mk e wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:07 pm

The clutch....is that a custom disc you're talking about having made? I ask because that is a wear item you might light to be able to easily replace....
So this is the great part, they will cut the flywheel to my spec and the clutch and disk will be exactly that, an off the shelf Porsche/Audi sprung disc road car set that has the same 23 tooth spline. Easy Peasy Rockauto Easy.....
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