V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

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mk e
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Perfect. The 1st post made it sound like you were planning a random (generic) pressure plate and custom disc.
bill
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

what company is making the flywheel?
and how much does it cost?
i may need one too
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

What transmission are you using? PMC has a few for BMW 6 speeds. DriftHQ.com is the company i called about the adaptor they said they can get the flywheel made. They will be going to SPEC or some other company to machine the flywheel. He said around $750 for the flywheel and clutch set around $500. Since I'm in Canada that's about $2000 so I'm screwed but that's what a reverse mortgage is for right?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

thanks!
more chicken than i can afford..
but thanks anyway !
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

How is it going, any progress?

In the beginning it would be one wideband. Hopefully one day we will have better support for V configurations https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1852
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Engine out of the black car, making room for the motor.

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Striping the motor for a quick refresh of gaskets and timing chain.

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mk e
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:35 pm
How is it going, any progress?

In the beginning it would be one wideband. Hopefully one day we will have better support for V configurations https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1852
That is problematic for most V setups as any high performance setup will be dual exhaust...looking at 1 bank is for sure better than looking at none but with 2 intakes, 2 TBs, 2 exhausts the banks are often a bit different and god forbid a cylinder is off for some reason...injector, coil, whatever you won't see it.

Have you got a way to at least log/view the results from another sensor? Closed loop is not required and I generally don't run it except at cruise conditions so IMO that can wait but personally I think seeing reading from 2 banks is a requirement.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Right now we cannot even log second sensor but that would be a trivial change to make. I'll have it within a week from seeing your engine idling :)
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:28 pm
Right now we cannot even log second sensor but that would be a trivial change to make. I'll have it within a week from seeing your engine idling :)
I'm probably a week or two away from making that change myself - I already have a v8 with dual banks (and sensors) and I'm about to have operational rusEFI custom wideband controllers in hand 😮
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

mk e wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:22 pm
Closed loop is not required and I generally don't run it except at cruise conditions so IMO that can wait but personally I think seeing reading from 2 banks is a requirement.
I run mine at closed loop from the instant the sensor is heated up. Even at wide open, even on overrun. Works great!
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:39 pm
mk e wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:22 pm
Closed loop is not required and I generally don't run it except at cruise conditions so IMO that can wait but personally I think seeing reading from 2 banks is a requirement.
I run mine at closed loop from the instant the sensor is heated up. Even at wide open, even on overrun. Works great!
I'm not is anyway staying its wrong, I've just never personally seen any added value to doing it. When I tune I like to know what I'm entering is what is being done, so open loop. Once its all tuned I've never seen a need to switch to closed loop beyond the low throttle stuff which does drift around bit. Just preference I guess but seeing values for both banks is important much more IMO.

AndreyB wrote:Right now we cannot even log second sensor but that would be a trivial change to make. I'll have it within a week from seeing your engine idling :)
Fair enough....I need to call the shop and find out why my block is not done..... but I do have 6 working O2 sensors just waiting for its return and in a couple days should also have the internal/external WB choice functioning bringing the number available to 8 and do have pins for 4 more to get to 12 should the need arise with the code change needed being- right click, append model x4 , 8 clicks and 4 more channels done. ;)
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

So lets throw a wrench in the O2 sensor issue. What if we go (not initially but in the future) with a quad exhaust like this one where we have 4 sets of 3 cylinders. Will rusEFI or the proteus be able to handle 4 inputs for tuning? Just asking cause I took my rear bumper off once and loved the GTR look and they Diablo quad resonator exhaust is not that hard to weld up.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Within a week from you posting an video of exposed engine bay with M73 running with four pipes you will get your 4 channel sensor integration.

Let me throw a wrench: you have a lot of tuning to do even with one WBO. At the moment all we've done on rusEFI M73 is start and idle. I have a feeling that a lot would have to be done even on one WBO.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:45 am
So lets throw a wrench in the O2 sensor issue. What if we go (not initially but in the future) with a quad exhaust like this one where we have 4 sets of 3 cylinders.
That will cost you a bit of hp I think...a 6-2-1 setup is optimal for most all applications. 6-1 collectors just don't work/flow very well, and with 3-1 you're giving up useful wave pules as well as adding extra pipe weight.... but if you prefer the looks that's that and its not a huge hp lose or weight gain. The exhaust I built for my car is 4 mufflers, but 2 are on valves so its 2 tolerable volume muffler to get to about 250-300hp, then 2 more race mufflers open up to get to 900+ flow capacity. so really its 6-2-1-2, but anything after the 1 part is all about restriction not wave tuning just 1 way to do it.

The system is fitted with 18 O2 bungs. I had thoughts of cylinder O2...but I'll probably never do that as it finally occurred to me how many amps all those sensors would eat and the wires hanging all over the engine are pretty ugly, but maybe temporary for troubleshooting. The current setup is 2 WB in the banks, then 4 NB in the 4 3 cyl headers. I think 2 is enough, the others are more for troubleshooting and because that may ITBs are hard to keep sync'd and more sensors makes any issues easier to see, but is irrelevant on a 2TB setup. I've though of switching to 4WB and ditch the bank sensors....no right answer but simpler is generally better so I'm more likely to keep the bank sensors and ditch the header sensors.

If you get up and running while just is available I'd suggest swapping it bank to bank....just to be sure. I still pull plugs too, habbit for the days when there was no such thing as O2 sensor an still about the only affordable way to know what's going on in each cylinder, and if you're doing that probably no reason to swap the sensor back and forth. Once its all setup and tuned you really don't need any, 1 just to keep an eye on things is fine or pop it in if something seems off.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

AndreyB wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:48 am
At the moment all we've done on rusEFI M73 is start and idle. I have a feeling that a lot would have to be done even on one WBO.
We will be running 6-2-1 for now if we have a chance to get it on the road this summer. I have no issue running 2 sensors one per bank for now. I want the motors in the engine bays plumbed and wired before I go hard core into the tuning.

Eventually we'll build some nice equal length headers like these to open up the sound and flow.
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Is there any rule of thumb for the placement of the bung on the pipes? Does it really matter how far back since the gas is still the same gas 8 inches or 2 feet down the pipe? My guess would be near the 6 into 2 collectors each side?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

the stock bmw is 4 banks of 3 cylinders... into 2 banks of 6 cyl... into one pipe
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mk e
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

bill wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:44 pm
the stock bmw is 4 banks of 3 cylinders... into 2 banks of 6 cyl... into one pipe
Yes, that is the typical straight 6 or V12 setup. Together it acts like a tri-y header with 2 distinct tunings. The manifold is a primary, it looks like on the 4th ot 5th reflection then the connecting pipe plus the y joining them together act as a collector on...it looks lie about the 3rd to maybe 4th reflection. Here it is the collector section doing most of the work to improve the low end to midrange.

Then the manifold + the connecting pipe can also act like a primary....its long so 1st reflection probably with the y part a collector on about the 6th reflection.

Reflection means exactly that....the waves have bounced that number of times. Thye lose energy on each bounce but each bounce is a different tunned rpm point. So a collector on the 6th reflection at peak hp, is in tune at 6 rpm point ....basically every 1000-1200 rpm on an engine like this. The factory setup is designed for a wide flat power curve vs the quad 3cyl header setup that is designed much more for a peak number as it just doesn't have nearly as many tuned point through the rpm range.

A lot goes on in the intake and exhaust....this is a typical header/ITB setup at peak hp
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:48 am
Let me throw a wrench: you have a lot of tuning to do even with one WBO. At the moment all we've done on rusEFI M73 is start and idle. I have a feeling that a lot would have to be done even on one WBO.
+1 to that. I ran my V8 on a single WBO for quite a while (O2 sensor before the exhaust merge) without issue. When I added a second, the two banks were always well under 0.05 lambda split.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:52 pm

+1 to that. I ran my V8 on a single WBO for quite a while (O2 sensor before the exhaust merge) without issue. When I added a second, the two banks were always well under 0.05 lambda split.
Factory common plenum manifold with a single TB on a basically stock engine and basically symmetric exhaust....they should match as long as nothing mechanical is wrong. Honestly you don't NEED any O2 sensors...it just a nice to have and its easy to get used to nice things.... and more sensors is more nicer :D

But more seriously, its good practice not to extrapolate. With no sensors you have no real system feeback other than feel and plug reads, nothing to extrapolate. With 1 sensor you have feedback for 1/2 the system so its really tempting to extrapolate that to the full system and not bother checking leaving 1/2 the system unmonitored. That's really the concern....the sides PROBABLY match so everything is PROBABLY well, isn't the same as the side do match and all is well. A few plug reads now and again and its fine but that is kind of where you were with no sensors so with 1 you really haven't solved a problem or eliminated much work, with 2 you have.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Thanks everyone for the great O2 info, I'll lock it down to 2 O2's rear of the collectors after the merge. Update on test fitting the engine in the black car.
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We located where the mounts will go and a general size up for the shift cables.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

THIS IS EPIC!!!

Also, please do not throw away your old funny injectors I might grab them from you.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

where's the tranny? in the car? just curious...
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Here it is:
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We haven't got the transmission adaptor yet, calling the guys in Florida tomorrow see where it is.

Tonight was more engine stripping, half the valve stem seals got done. Tomorrow finish up the stem seals and start putting the new gaskets on the motor and back together.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Moving along, rear water jacket sealed. Temp sensors installed.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

OE1 VW transmission adaptor from PMC works perfect on O12 Audi transmision.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Looking forward starter cranking and injectors injecting!
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

Where / how does the starter work??
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Hey Bill yes the pics below show the 2 parts of the adaptor. It uses the stock positions for the least amount of hassle.

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You can see in this pic we are using the M70 starter ring inside the adaptor on our M73N motor.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

very interesting...
waiting to see the assembled setup!!!
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Motor is coming together for the yellow car. I've got the time so why not sand a paint all the parts.

This M73N is looking more like a M70 every day.
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What BMW?
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One for Andrey

Can the software compensate for the fact that the M70 crank pully is 4 teeth off the M73 timing? You can see the sensor mount is dead center on the 4th tooth after the missing tooth on the M73. My Hope is rusEFI can compensate for the pulse difference . Andrey is this true?
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