V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

What is the cam sensor used for in the full sequential setup? Since the sensor is ON for a full half rotation of the cam, I guess to tell the computer if your on the exhaust or intake stroke?
mck1117
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Lambo97 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:07 pm
What is the cam sensor used for in the full sequential setup? Since the sensor is ON for a full half rotation of the cam, I guess to tell the computer if your on the exhaust or intake stroke?
Yes, exactly. The crank position sensor tells the computer the crankshaft's position within a revolution, but it can't tell whether it's on the "first half" or the "second half" of the 720 degree engine cycle. Cam sensor just tells it "first half" or "second half".
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Ok just ordered 16 LS2 coil packs, cause you have to. Once mounted ill figure out if I want to go wasted spark or full sequential. Not sure if there are any benefits to either, maybe someone here may have an opinion either way.
mk e
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 4:19 am
Ok just ordered 16 LS2 coil packs, cause you have to. Once mounted ill figure out if I want to go wasted spark or full sequential. Not sure if there are any benefits to either, maybe someone here may have an opinion either way.
I'm using basically the same coils (D585 truck version) on the frankenferrari. My ecu only has 10 ignition outputs so waste spark was the only option and if works fine...but sequential has a few advantages. With waste spark the coils use double the power and produce double the heat is the main thing....and with 12 on a high rpm engine its a LOT of power. Mine are fused at 40A which is low if anything, at 11k I think 60A is probably the right number, but it would be 1/2 that in sequential so I would switch in a second if it were an option.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

let me know how it goes on the hooking up the cam sensor...
i have not done it yet,
also, the proteus trigger setup has to be changed for cam sensor ...
cant remember exactly what the setting is, but once you get to that point, i will look it up for you
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

mk e wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 12:39 pm
but it would be 1/2 that in sequential so I would switch in a second if it were an option.
Yes I purchased the truck D585 coils with heatsink. Just got them in today, have to figure out how to mount the 12 of them. And Mk e I heard there was this cool board that can run a 12 cyl....!!!
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

bill wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 6:35 pm
let me know how it goes on the hooking up the cam sensor...
i have not done it yet, also, the proteus trigger setup has to be changed for cam sensor ...
cant remember exactly what the setting is, but once you get to that point, i will look it up for you
This week is exhaust week, we have the pipes in and are starting tomorrow to weld up the Y pipes and mufflers. Once complete I'll be going gang busters on the wiring of the sensors.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by dbh97 »

mke's can't actually use that nice board because he's busy rebuilding his house one piece at a time. Someone needs to go bribe his wife to lift her thumb for a bit.
/jk I respect it.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mk e »

Lambo97 wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 1:38 am

Yes I purchased the truck D585 coils with heatsink. Just got them in today, have to figure out how to mount the 12 of them. And Mk e I heard there was this cool board that can run a 12 cyl....!!!
Remember the D585s will fire when they exceed the factory max dwell...5000usec at 13.7 I think it is, less at higher voltage, more below, so watch that when you set them up.

I made mine into a rail the mounts nearly out of sight on the fire wall...

The sad thing is the ecu I have HAS 12 ignition drivers, I just haven't been able to get the developer to give me FW to let me use them...10 work right, 1 is inverted, 1 nothing. It stared life with 12 year back but 2 got repurposed, jumpers get them back but the FW also moved on sadly. As for switching ECU....well, I would need 3 or 4 proteas boards to run all the other stuff I use the ECU and also loose spark timing accuracy (although there is some debate about how much accuracy is required) for so I'll live with the waste spark and once the car actually drives I'm pretty sure I will be able to get the FW I need for direct fire.
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bill
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

what's been goin on?? just checkin in ...
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Hey there, it's a nightly battle. 5 hours on average per night. My wife doesn't know who I am anymore, I keep promising it's only another 2 weeks...really....

Got more stainless bends ready for the exhaust:
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Both sides are done:
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Coils mounted on a rail beside the engine:
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Had some last minute upgrades for the rear struts to convert to coil over:
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3d Printed the cases for the V2 and V4, if anyone has a V5 board shoot me a PM
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Exhaust all pretty in the frame:
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Tips installed:
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Working on the rear shield tonight that covers the transmission and mechanical junk visible from the back. Once that is done, I'm gang busters on the wiring. Things will start to get interesting as I wire each sensor it will be that much closer to starting. Bill do you have a thread started for the Jag?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Bluepower »

Awesome progress!!
When do you expect to do the first start??
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

rusefi.com/online is the place where you can upload your current tune and we would be able to see how it looks
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Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Bluepower wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:58 pm
Awesome progress!!
When do you expect to do the first start??
Heavy wiring going on right now, just got the MAP, IAT, CLT wired. Hoping to have the ECU powered up tonight to start checking sensors. Goal is this week, hope to have a video up but the O2 is still something I have to figure out how to wire in.
Lambo97
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

AndreyB wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:11 pm
rusefi.com/online is the place where you can upload your current tune and we would be able to see how it looks
Sounds good, Andrey since you wired up the original V12 harness, is the M73 using VR input or digital input? Also I'm guessing my CAM input would be Digital input correct?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

on black 23 pin connector
for crank sensor
one wire is to the VR_1+ # pin 5
one wire is sensor ground (black) VR1- # pin 13
and one wire is the SHIELDING, which goes to any of the ground on the proteus ,
but NOT grounded to the block of the engine on the sensor side
you will probably end up swapping VR + and VR - to test the signal, so don't hardwire them quite yet

where is your crank sensor mounted?
on mine its in the bmw manual transmission bellhousing
which you do not have

Black 23 Pin conn also ----
pin 10 = digital 1 --- for cam sensor --
other wire to ground...
should be 2 wires out of the cam sensor, if i remember correctly
configure the digital pin 1 as your as "Cam sync/vvt input"
then on the "advanced trigger" page, pick vvt mode "inactive" to just log and not actually listen to it -- in wasted spark mode, which you will be using to start with...

once you go sequential spark, the
cam is set as primary and crank as secondary...
With a setup like yours, I understand cam is primary because cam position is required for sync, but it only uses that information for tdc detection and the crank wheel is what's used for all timing
PRIMARY = used to determine where #1 cylinder is located
SECONDARY = used to add extra resolution information

make sense?
bill
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

OK yes, so I purchased and used the M70 front timing cover and crank pulley. So my timing marks are on the front pulley.

The Cam sensor has 3 wires, a red, brown and a black that seems to be grounded to the frame. I guess red would be Digital1, brown would be Sensor ground, and the black wire frame ground?

Also without an Oscilloscope how would I know if the VR1+ and VR1- are reversed? More specifically what symptoms am I looking for to determine if the polarity is reversed?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

Lambo97 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:31 pm
the Cam sensor has 3 wires, a red, brown and a black that seems to be grounded to the frame. I guess red would be Digital1, brown would be Sensor ground, and the black wire frame ground?
no way

did you have a chance to look at two different m73 wiring diagrams we have at the wiki?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

OK from the Wiki it seems the Red/Blue is 12V+ Black says Signal and Brown Orange is Sensor Ground.
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So I did connect it wrong. I saw the black wire spliced into 2 though it was a common ground for bunch of sensors. Rewire time. Itching to get a start out of it.

Bill / Andrey would you recommend using one of your TunerStudio MSQs or should I try making one from scratch. My goal is to go full sequential, like Andrey did, but I could also start with wasted spark like Bill. I will have the wiring setup for full but I'm not sure the benefit of going wasted to start other than ease of setup. Bill is that why your recommending to try wasted first? Should I use your MSQ and mod it to fit my setup?

Also I'm about to purchase the TunerStudio, do I need to purchase MegaLog viewer to allow for autotune, or does Tunerstudio MS Ultra allow for autotuning? Need some direction before I go buy the wrong thing.

Thanks,
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by AndreyB »

my preference is to go one step at a time.

have we seen engine cranking? can we see RPM reading on TS during cranking?

we are not at a point of TS purchase as of today in my opinion. please start with the tune inside your unit please do not nuke it. there is a button in TS to reset to my v12 settings
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Good, point I want to see RPM first. I booted up Tuner Studio with your .2 ini, I'm guessing it's ok to use for both .2 and .4 boards. I'll go plug it in get some more wiring finished and see if I can get RPM on crank.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

you have to do wasted spark if you do not have the cam sensor turned on ...

so start with wasted spark and get your timing set correctly ...
i recommend testing the timing with an old school timing light
to make sure your settings are correct
just crank over the engine with the starter
hook to cyl #1
and use the light

use the Andrey preset BMW V12 in the tuner studio, not my setup

while using the timing gun
set the timing to whichever is the static setting preset in tunerstudio
... i can't remember offhand , but that is best for timing light
you want the gun to read on the crank timing marks at 0 deg BTDC

once you got the spark correct,
spray some starting fluid in there and it should kick over and run for 10 secs
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Still wiring. Does anyone know what pin on the ECU I can get a Tach pulse for my VDO gauges? Also I don't have the pig tail for the M73 crank sensor if anyone has the pin outs would be nice, I can't seem to find a physical to logical cross diagram with the pin outs.

Thanks,
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by bill »

do you have a picture of the crank sensor?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

It's this sensor:
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mck1117
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Lambo97 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:24 pm
Still wiring. Does anyone know what pin on the ECU I can get a Tach pulse for my VDO gauges? Also I don't have the pig tail for the M73 crank sensor if anyone has the pin outs would be nice, I can't seem to find a physical to logical cross diagram with the pin outs.
You probably want one of the high side outputs. I use one with my VDO tach and it works great.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:04 pm
You probably want one of the high side outputs. I use one with my VDO tach and it works great.
OK I will use Pin 1 of the black connector Highside 2 to run the tach.

I'm back at wiring today, if anyone has an idea of the pinouts for that crank sensor. I would have to move the wires 3 times without a starting point and I'm hoping if I put the shield wire to one of the VR inputs on the ECU I don't burn anything.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by mck1117 »

Lambo97 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:55 pm
I'm back at wiring today, if anyone has an idea of the pinouts for that crank sensor. I would have to move the wires 3 times without a starting point and I'm hoping if I put the shield wire to one of the VR inputs on the ECU I don't burn anything.
you can figure it out pretty easily - two pins should have a resistance <1k between them, those are VR+ and VR-. The shield pin should have no connection to either of the other pins.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas

Post by Lambo97 »

Great, that's sounds easy. Now how will I know if I need to reverse the vr inputs? Will Tunerstudio give me an indication?
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