Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:47 pm
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Worst case I can visit you in September.
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V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:03 pm
Your log is online
120% duty cycle is a bit unexpected
Worst case I can visit you in September.
120% duty cycle is a bit unexpected
Worst case I can visit you in September.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:17 pm
I purchased Andrey's wiring harness you see in the YouTube video under his V12 M73 Thread. When I powered things up a few weeks ago they were moving fine. This seemed to have happened some where during my addition of extra pins and sensors. I remember sometime during the wiring they stopped working but continued, thinking it was something I had to set in the software. Also at that time the lowside pins seem to trigger the rad fans and now the fuel pump during electronic throttle actuation.
Yesterday I switched to the V2 board to see if there were any differences and I loose USB connectivity when I plug the car harness into the board. My guess is there is some sort of short. I think I may have used P ground or S ground incorrectly for some devices? So maybe snipping some of the ground wires might reduce my troubleshooting time. I'll do a comprehensive sensor test and list them here tonight hopefully isolating the errant connection.
Yesterday I switched to the V2 board to see if there were any differences and I loose USB connectivity when I plug the car harness into the board. My guess is there is some sort of short. I think I may have used P ground or S ground incorrectly for some devices? So maybe snipping some of the ground wires might reduce my troubleshooting time. I'll do a comprehensive sensor test and list them here tonight hopefully isolating the errant connection.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:35 pm
unfortunately v2 and v3 boards and harnessed are not 100% compatible.
Code: Select all
~6 wires are different between Proteus 0.2 and Proteus 0.3 - all on the 23 pin plug.Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:53 am
Looking at the pump relay as it seems to turn on the ETB's so I'm hoping someone can figure out what is happening.
Measuring on Pin 23
ECU plugged into harness, Key is off, Pump relay NOT connected. 1.19V on pin 23 (Large black Plug), ETBs dead no V on MTR + or -
ECu plugged into harness, Key is off, Pump relay connected to pin 23, 12V (12V coming from other side of Relay Coil) ETBs Dead no V on MTR + or -
ECU plugged into harness, key is ON, Pump relay connected to pin 23, 5.1V ETBs start to hum, Pin 8 has 0.3V+ as i move the throttle goes down to -0.13V no movement.
My point is why is it when I connect 12V through the lowside on Pin23 (Pump Output) the ETBs start humming and I get voltages on the MTR pins?
Next question is does this sound like I'm not powering the ETB's correctly, I thought Pin 23 was the main input for the throttle driver and it has 12V no issue.
Measuring on Pin 23
ECU plugged into harness, Key is off, Pump relay NOT connected. 1.19V on pin 23 (Large black Plug), ETBs dead no V on MTR + or -
ECu plugged into harness, Key is off, Pump relay connected to pin 23, 12V (12V coming from other side of Relay Coil) ETBs Dead no V on MTR + or -
ECU plugged into harness, key is ON, Pump relay connected to pin 23, 5.1V ETBs start to hum, Pin 8 has 0.3V+ as i move the throttle goes down to -0.13V no movement.
My point is why is it when I connect 12V through the lowside on Pin23 (Pump Output) the ETBs start humming and I get voltages on the MTR pins?
Next question is does this sound like I'm not powering the ETB's correctly, I thought Pin 23 was the main input for the throttle driver and it has 12V no issue.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:02 am
This paragraph is mixing pin 23 of "Black 35 Pin 776231-1 Right" and pin 23 of "Black 23 Pin 776228-1 Middle" middle. Please confirm that those two unrelated pin 23 wires are very unrelated and very different on your harness?
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:03 am
Just a side note I realized Andrey was correct and the 2 harnesses I had from him were different. One for V2 and one for V4. So I plugged the V2 board into the V2 harness. I powered Pin 23, 18, and grounded 19. I get similar results where the ETBs hum but no movement. In this case though there seems that the RAW pedal secondary voltage is not moving, so maybe that is a failsafe. Again I guess I'm missing how the ETB's are being powered. If anyone can point me to the bare minimum pin set I need to boot the ECU and power the ETB's I can check that also against the V4 to see if it's getting the voltage.
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:05 am
You need to get your sensors working first. If the ETBs are humming, they have power. If the pedal inputs don't work, of course the pedal isnt' going to be able to move the throttle. What kind of pedal are you using, and is it wired correctly?Lambo97 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:03 amJust a side note I realized Andrey was correct and the 2 harnesses I had from him were different. One for V2 and one for V4. So I plugged the V2 board into the V2 harness. I powered Pin 23, 18, and grounded 19. I get similar results where the ETBs hum but no movement. In this case though there seems that the RAW pedal secondary voltage is not moving, so maybe that is a failsafe. Again I guess I'm missing how the ETB's are being powered. If anyone can point me to the bare minimum pin set I need to boot the ECU and power the ETB's I can check that also against the V4 to see if it's getting the voltage.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:06 am
Lambo97 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:53 amLooking at the pump relay as it seems to turn on the ETB's so I'm hoping someone can figure out what is happening.
Measuring on Pin 23
ECU plugged into harness, Key is off, Pump relay NOT connected. 1.19V on pin 23 (Large black Plug), ETBs dead no V on MTR + or -
ECu plugged into harness, Key is off, Pump relay connected to pin 23, 12V (12V coming from other side of Relay Coil) ETBs Dead no V on MTR + or -
ECU plugged into harness, key is ON, Pump relay connected to pin 23, 5.1V ETBs start to hum, Pin 8 has 0.3V+ as i move the throttle goes down to -0.13V no movement.
My point is why is it when I connect 12V through the lowside on Pin23 (Pump Output, Large Black Connector) the ETBs start humming and I get voltages on the MTR pins?
Next question is does this sound like I'm not powering the ETB's correctly, I thought Pin 23 Small Black connector was the main input for the throttle driver and it has 12V no issue.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:08 am
I believe both harnesses were shipped with baby Toyota pedal sensors https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/OEM-Docs/Bmw/1998_750_e38/proteus_0.2/Proteus_ready_for_M73.jpg see https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-M73-v12-on-Proteus
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:09 am
Ok. Anyway, the sensors shouldn't be reading 0 either way.AndreyB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:08 amI believe both harnesses were shipped with baby Toyota pedal sensors https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/OEM-Docs/Bmw/1998_750_e38/proteus_0.2/Proteus_ready_for_M73.jpg see https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-M73-v12-on-Proteus
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:09 am
Is it time for http://rusefi.com/slack/ and https://rusefi.slack.com/ i.e. Slack time?
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:11 am
Hey there guys didn't think you were up. So I haven't changed anything from Andrey's harness he sent. On the V4 Board the primary and secondary voltages are working fine, plus I'm getting a variable voltage output to the ETB's as they hum at different frequencies in relation to throttle movement, just no physical movement. I'm just finding it extremely weird that the ETB's are completely dead until I provide 12V on pin 23 large black connector, or Pin 12 Rad Fan large black connector.mck1117 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:05 amYou need to get your sensors working first. If the ETBs are humming, they have power. If the pedal inputs don't work, of course the pedal isnt' going to be able to move the throttle. What kind of pedal are you using, and is it wired correctly?Lambo97 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:03 amJust a side note I realized Andrey was correct and the 2 harnesses I had from him were different. One for V2 and one for V4. So I plugged the V2 board into the V2 harness. I powered Pin 23, 18, and grounded 19. I get similar results where the ETBs hum but no movement. In this case though there seems that the RAW pedal secondary voltage is not moving, so maybe that is a failsafe. Again I guess I'm missing how the ETB's are being powered. If anyone can point me to the bare minimum pin set I need to boot the ECU and power the ETB's I can check that also against the V4 to see if it's getting the voltage.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:16 am
Sorry that was a quick screen shot powered down. This is what it looks like Plugged in and powered up.mck1117 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:09 amOk. Anyway, the sensors shouldn't be reading 0 either way.AndreyB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:08 amI believe both harnesses were shipped with baby Toyota pedal sensors https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/OEM-Docs/Bmw/1998_750_e38/proteus_0.2/Proteus_ready_for_M73.jpg see https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-M73-v12-on-Proteus
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:33 pm
OK putting the V4 aside for now. Lets try the V2.
Please tell me if it's me or the board: Powered up pin 18 and 23 on small black connector. Grounded pin 19
ETB's hum but no movement. I verified there is 12V at both pin 18 and 23 yet TS shows USB voltage. Any ideas?
Am I done here with these boards? have they all fried?
Please tell me if it's me or the board: Powered up pin 18 and 23 on small black connector. Grounded pin 19
ETB's hum but no movement. I verified there is 12V at both pin 18 and 23 yet TS shows USB voltage. Any ideas?
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Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:42 pm
you have my US phone. please call me on my US cell.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:09 pm
Update for the forum, I've spoken to Andrey and Mat we got on slack to talk about ideas. I played with the board wiggled some wires and it seems when I press down on the connector the ETBs start humming. I'll be reflowing the header pins today to see if I can stabilize the board. So good news nothing too major for the V4 board.
As for the V2 board (earlier black board) I'm still getting a low voltage in Tuner Studio, I'll attack that board in a few days once I get the newer board up and running.
As for the V2 board (earlier black board) I'm still getting a low voltage in Tuner Studio, I'll attack that board in a few days once I get the newer board up and running.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:07 am
Getting close to starting: ETBs work, TPSs are checking in, Set base trigger to 28.125 Degrees (360 degrees divided by 64 teeth on flywheel equals 5.625. Trigger is 5 teeth away so 28.125 degrees initial)
I'll spin it over and check timing first but the temp sensors are a little more tricky. IAT is stock BMW at about 508 Ohms at 24.5 degrees Celsius. I only have that number currently in Tuner Studio, If anyone knows of or has the resistance table for the stock BMW temp sensor would help. #13621739510 The IAT was used on E36, E46, E39, E38, E31, E83, E53
I'll spin it over and check timing first but the temp sensors are a little more tricky. IAT is stock BMW at about 508 Ohms at 24.5 degrees Celsius. I only have that number currently in Tuner Studio, If anyone knows of or has the resistance table for the stock BMW temp sensor would help. #13621739510 The IAT was used on E36, E46, E39, E38, E31, E83, E53
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:43 am
Matt and Andrey were on the money 30 Degrees trigger offset is perfect. This after going through the Proteus trigger setup, step by step in the manual. Getting late tonight still have to put the plugs in and put all the wiring back i took apart for diagnosis. Next post could be video of engine running!
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:11 am
Ok Finally got a video of it running, lots of tuning, current issues with widebands not reading anything but working through that. One bank seems richer than the next bank so I'll go through and do a check of spark to each cylinder.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:32 am
that's epic! thank you for betting on rusEFI
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:49 am
sounds good to me! VEEE Twelve !!!
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:44 pm
Todays update, I worked with Matt the Wideband and Proteus developer and after updating firmware the 2 widebands are working. They are confirming the right bank is way more rich than the left bank. We did a plug check and it seems Cylinder 4 may not be firing. I've ordered new copper plugs (easier to read, more reliable) I'll also prep to replace the coil and possibly the injector. Once replaced I map move the MAP sensor over to the other bank and lastly I might have to create a crossover tub to equalize the intake vacuum since they are currently completely separate.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:58 pm
Hey Andrey no problem, there really isn't any other option to run sequential V12. Also if I was running a less complicated motor rusEFI would be the most cost effective and easy solution to run most any motor on the market.
On another note, thinking about a crazy idea, this issue of having 2 separate banks, do you see an opportunity to develop a dual MAP, dual bank configuration that would allow us to assign injectors to a bank and then assign a wideband to each bank. The Proteus has more inputs to allow this just wondering if you think this is possible or something of interest to be done?
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:59 pm
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:46 pm
Just thinking of how the V12 was originally built as 2 separate motors with a common crank. I saw this motor running smoothly with using 2 separate ECU's with 2 sets of sensors. If we could virtually assign injectors, MAP and O2 to separate banks, theoretically even down to the cylinder you would be able to manage the engine with a granularity and adjust for deficiencies only limited by the sensor array.
I'm just greenfielding it here, as humans always we always want more control and the theory always usually exceeds what is practical. But a 2 bank config could be interesting.
I'm just greenfielding it here, as humans always we always want more control and the theory always usually exceeds what is practical. But a 2 bank config could be interesting.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:50 pm
This isn't a crazy idea - actually a pretty reasonable one. We already support per-bank correction with multiple widebands, but not yet fully independent fueling per-bank.Lambo97 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:58 pmOn another note, thinking about a crazy idea, this issue of having 2 separate banks, do you see an opportunity to develop a dual MAP, dual bank configuration that would allow us to assign injectors to a bank and then assign a wideband to each bank. The Proteus has more inputs to allow this just wondering if you think this is possible or something of interest to be done?
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:31 am
Getting closer. Decided that a crossover pipe between the intakes might equalize the vacuum and provide a little extra air at idle. Off to the home depot for some knurled fittings.
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:41 am
Re: V12 M73 to Audi trans, with Proteus in Lamborghini Replicas
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:44 pm
Any time there is more than 1 TB there will be mismatch between them over the range. Not sure if multiple MAPs or multiple O2s are the best way to fix it. Mine is setup to correct basesed on MAP but it hasn't run enough for me to really say it's a good solution. I don't do separate calculations because I didn't want to mess with separate tuning tables...I average, do a global cal using global tables then correct based on difference from average. I do have cylinder tables too, but the idea was just for any fine tuning and to sort flow differences and such. I do also have a closed loop based on the O2 readings but have never tested that...haven't gotten that far.mck1117 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:50 pmThis isn't a crazy idea - actually a pretty reasonable one. We already support per-bank correction with multiple widebands, but not yet fully independent fueling per-bank.Lambo97 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:58 pmOn another note, thinking about a crazy idea, this issue of having 2 separate banks, do you see an opportunity to develop a dual MAP, dual bank configuration that would allow us to assign injectors to a bank and then assign a wideband to each bank. The Proteus has more inputs to allow this just wondering if you think this is possible or something of interest to be done?