1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Your chance to introduce yourself and your vehicle
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:29 pm
You already have a main relay, it's labeled "EEC Power Relay" on the wiring diagram. The ECU doesn't need constant 12v - just switched 12v from the ignition switch (this one is pretty low power - maybe 100mA draw), and the 12V_MR pin, which is for higher power stuff on the ECU, to be powered by an external relay. The ECU switches the main relay on after starting up itself using whatever normal output you have configured for it.
Oh! I figured it had to do with power consumption concerns. There's plenty of amperage from the EEC relay anyhow so couldn't I jumper your 12V to 12V_MR pin? I can't really see any benefits from adding another relay if I've got enough amperage stock? Then I could just leave pin 1 disconnected.

Also, I'm having a stupid moment and can't figure out why you have four Zener diodes to four of the low-side switches. Could you humor my lack of understanding here?
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Also, I'm working on getting the BOM for ordering the parts for your v0.5 proteus. R906 value is 1. I'm assuming this is 1kOhm? Can't find a value listed anywhere.

As far as ordering the boards, it looks like you used generic libraries for a lot of stuff. Is this so that the assembler can come up with their own components? I'm assuming this has issues letting JLCPCB choose them? Any insight on how to best order?
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:03 pm
Oh! I figured it had to do with power consumption concerns. There's plenty of amperage from the EEC relay anyhow so couldn't I jumper your 12V to 12V_MR pin? I can't really see any benefits from adding another relay if I've got enough amperage stock? Then I could just leave pin 1 disconnected.
The point of the main relay is so that you don't have to have all the injector/idle valve/ignition/electronic throttle/etc current flowing through the ignition switch, and the ECU can turn it off if something goes wrong, killing the engine.
wstefan20 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:03 pm
Also, I'm having a stupid moment and can't figure out why you have four Zener diodes to four of the low-side switches. Could you humor my lack of understanding here?
Those aren't zeners, they're schottkys diodes. Those four channels are intended for use with higher current PWM inductive loads like boost solenoids or idle valves, and the diodes are freewheeling/clamping diodes.
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 pm
Also, I'm working on getting the BOM for ordering the parts for your v0.5 proteus. R906 value is 1. I'm assuming this is 1kOhm? Can't find a value listed anywhere.
Nope, it's not 1k, it really is a single ohm. It exists to add ESR to C1006, as they together form a snubber to damp out ringing between the supply power wiring (which is an inductor!), L2002, and C1001. The switching power supply means not only that there can be voltage ripple on the output, but also current ripple on the input! The input filter (R906, C1006, L2002, C1001) exists to contain that current ripple inside the ECU instead of using the supply wiring as an antenna to blast 2.2MHz noise everywhere.
wstefan20 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 pm
As far as ordering the boards, it looks like you used generic libraries for a lot of stuff. Is this so that the assembler can come up with their own components? I'm assuming this has issues letting JLCPCB choose them? Any insight on how to best order?
Everything on the board assembled by JLCPCB has an extra field (you'll have to open in kicad, not visible on pdf schematic), "LCSC", that contains the LCSC item number of the component that should be installed there. JLC is so cheap because they have a nearly fully automated line and will do exactly zero hand picking of stuff for you. If you want JLC to do a 90% assembly of the board (recommended!) then you should be able to upload the stuff out of the export/v0.4 folder to JLC. Those export files have been used successfully for a few batches already.
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:51 pm
The point of the main relay is so that you don't have to have all the injector/idle valve/ignition/electronic throttle/etc current flowing through the ignition switch, and the ECU can turn it off if something goes wrong, killing the engine.
Ok! That makes sense. For my personal setup I will definitely be using the main relay for safety. I'd like to have the option to use the stock EEC relay to make the setup fully plug and play though. Would you recommend jumpers or solder pad? That's potentially a lot of current so I'm guessing jumper?
mck1117 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:51 pm
Those aren't zeners, they're schottkys diodes. Those four channels are intended for use with higher current PWM inductive loads like boost solenoids or idle valves, and the diodes are freewheeling/clamping diodes.
I didn't even think about PWM loads! What specs would you recommend? I'm assuming set the breakdown at something like 15V, or is that too high? NVM. I found the LCSC website!
Last edited by wstefan20 on Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:03 am
Nope, it's not 1k, it really is a single ohm. It exists to add ESR to C1006, as they together form a snubber to damp out ringing between the supply power wiring (which is an inductor!), L2002, and C1001. The switching power supply means not only that there can be voltage ripple on the output, but also current ripple on the input! The input filter (R906, C1006, L2002, C1001) exists to contain that current ripple inside the ECU instead of using the supply wiring as an antenna to blast 2.2MHz noise everywhere.
Guess I need to brush up on my power systems! :lol: Admittedly power classes were my least favorite. Probably should have paid more attention! Thanks for the lesson! :D
mck1117 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:03 am
Everything on the board assembled by JLCPCB has an extra field (you'll have to open in kicad, not visible on pdf schematic), "LCSC", that contains the LCSC item number of the component that should be installed there. JLC is so cheap because they have a nearly fully automated line and will do exactly zero hand picking of stuff for you. If you want JLC to do a 90% assembly of the board (recommended!) then you should be able to upload the stuff out of the export/v0.4 folder to JLC. Those export files have been used successfully for a few batches already.
That makes way more sense! Have you ordered any 0.5V boards? I figure I might as well be a guinea pig and use the most recent version.
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Well, I'm glad I checked back through things. I actually had the IAC wired to a high side output. I didn't even think that it was a low-side! I ended up re-checking all the outputs and turns out the check engine light was also a low-side switch as well.

On that note, what would normally use high-side anyhow?
mk e
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mk e »

wstefan20 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:29 pm

On that note, what would normally use high-side anyhow?
On older vehicles you use the HS outputs after you run out of LS outputs so it's now worth the bother to rewire. That's the only use I've ever found for them. I guess new vehicles have stuff that is HS from the factory
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mk e wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:00 pm
On older vehicles you use the HS outputs after you run out of LS outputs so it's now worth the bother to rewire. That's the only use I've ever found for them. I guess new vehicles have stuff that is HS from the factory
Good to know! Glad I caught it though. I pushed the changes to the repo.
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

mk e wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:00 pm
On older vehicles you use the HS outputs after you run out of LS outputs so it's now worth the bother to rewire. That's the only use I've ever found for them. I guess new vehicles have stuff that is HS from the factory
And sometimes there's a mix of both for no apparent reason. The factory GM ECU for my engine is LS switched for the fuel pump relay, but HS switched for the radiator fan.
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:39 am
And sometimes there's a mix of both for no apparent reason. The factory GM ECU for my engine is LS switched for the fuel pump relay, but HS switched for the radiator fan.
Interesting! I wonder why? Technically high side switching is safer since a short would just blow a fuse instead of turning something on.

And you probably didn't see the question a few posts up, but have you ordered the v0.5 Proteus? I was trying to compare and didn't see any difference for 0.4 but I'm sure I'm just overlooking something
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:39 am
And sometimes there's a mix of both for no apparent reason. The factory GM ECU for my engine is LS switched for the fuel pump relay, but HS switched for the radiator fan.
Interesting! I wonder why? Technically high side switching is safer since a short would just blow a fuse instead of turning something on.

And you probably didn't see the question a few posts up, but have you ordered the v0.5 Proteus? I was trying to compare and didn't see any difference for 0.4 but I'm sure I'm just overlooking something
mk e
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:39 am
mk e wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:00 pm
On older vehicles you use the HS outputs after you run out of LS outputs so it's now worth the bother to rewire. That's the only use I've ever found for them. I guess new vehicles have stuff that is HS from the factory
And sometimes there's a mix of both for no apparent reason. The factory GM ECU for my engine is LS switched for the fuel pump relay, but HS switched for the radiator fan.
yes. Older though, 80s/90s everything is LS that I've seem at least...not sure when they started adding HS stuff exactly but for sure on my 84 which had the first of the electronics ferrari started adding, electronic ignition and while mechanical injection it had a NBO2 that adjusted the mechanical system and an electronic injector in the manifold for warmup enrich and on that thing every gauge, sensor, relay, everything is wired for LS control....wait..the brake light switch is on the HS I guess :D
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:19 pm
And you probably didn't see the question a few posts up, but have you ordered the v0.5 Proteus? I was trying to compare and didn't see any difference for 0.4 but I'm sure I'm just overlooking something
There hasn't been a v0.5 publish yet, even though the latest in master says 0.5 on the board :D

There are a few changes that have been made:
  • MAX9924 mode selection resistors are now 0805 for easier hand soldering
  • Added pulldown resistors for HS outputs
  • Switched to thru hole caps for the big electrolytics (easier to solder than smd)
  • Fixed the knock sense headphone output (opamp inverting/non-inverting pins were swapped - d'oh)
It needs at least one more pass before it's ready to go, then I'm happy to publish an "official" v0.5 release.
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:37 am
There hasn't been a v0.5 publish yet, even though the latest in master says 0.5 on the board :D

There are a few changes that have been made:
  • MAX9924 mode selection resistors are now 0805 for easier hand soldering
  • Added pulldown resistors for HS outputs
  • Switched to thru hole caps for the big electrolytics (easier to solder than smd)
  • Fixed the knock sense headphone output (opamp inverting/non-inverting pins were swapped - d'oh)
It needs at least one more pass before it's ready to go, then I'm happy to publish an "official" v0.5 release.
Ok! I'll hold off on ordering for now, just keep me posted and I'll gladly be the guinea pig! :D

I'm still waiting on the donor ECU for reference anyhow.
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Just got the donor ECU in, and boy am I glad I waited! My suspicions were correct. There were two types of cases made for the EEC-IV, but the pinout is the same.

The green outline as seen is one style, and the other is a bit wider but has these angled cuts. I took the smaller of the two outlines and holes and this design at least two holes for either case will still be used so it will be mostly secure.

Now just need the go-ahead on the 0.5v Proteus and we're off! (Unless anyone has any thoughts)

Image
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Both boards have been ordered! Should have all components in about a week and I'll start getting everything ready for testing! I'll post pictures and updates as I have them!
Simon@FutureProof
contributor
contributor
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:55 pm
Github Username: Orchardperformance
Slack: Orchardperformance

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by Simon@FutureProof »

Any news?

How is the build going?
Now keeping MRE and Proteus in stock in the UK - https://www.FutureProofPerformance.com
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:29 pm
Any news?

How is the build going?
Sorry. Been a long couple of months... Started a new job and moved half-way across the country so settling in has been a bit crazy.

That said, I'm picking things back up again, and I should have the adapter boards in hand in about a week. Then I'll just have to solder everything and flash the firmware and hopefully everything works! I'll update as things happen!
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Finally got the adapter boards in! They look fantastic.

Image

You can see from the image below that I didn't realize the two mounting holes on either side are raised up to the height of the board. I was hoping they were flush...

Which raises another concern with this version of the case, that there are no front mounting screw locations as they were part of the old board's cooling structures which are welded to the old boards. They could be removed by drilling out, but I they wouldn't be able to mount to a new board, so I think I'm going to try a different approach...

The two corners are pretty thick with material and would make good places to drill and tap some screw holes.

To fix the board height issue, I'm just going to get a little creative with grinding...

I'll obviously include these cut outs in the future so I don't have to do any grinding.

Image

Here's a picture of the case on it. Still looks factory! It'll look better with the aforementioned modifications.

Image

Once I get a chance to solder the Proteus boards and test them I'll get to soldering!
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 13029
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by AndreyB »

looking forward!!
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Finally got the boards and equipment together in my tiny apartment and managed to start assembly.

Image

Not the best soldering I've done. Bit rusty. For future models I'm thinking of delrin tubes between the layers to insulate the brass. Turned out better then I thought it would though. Gotta find some way to cut both the rods and delrin with consistency. Side cutters worked passably for the brass, but wasn't good enough for the delrin which is why I left it off on this one. The rods should be spaced enough apart to be an issue though.

Image

Boy I'm rusty. This has the be the smallest thing I've soldered without a microscope. Had to sell mine the last move, so hopefully I get another soon...

Image

Overall though I think it came out pretty good. Ran out of brass rod, so I'll have to wait to finish it, but I'll program it and continuity check everything.

Image

Could have possibly gone thinner, but I figured this was a good spacing. Fits perfectly in the case. USB comes right to the top so if I cut a hole for it it would be almost flush.

Once it's tested and programmed, I'll seal everything for corrosion resistance since the case isn't water-proof, and ship it to my friend!

More to come!
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Got everything soldered up and continuity tested today. Attempted to test everything but all I get is a green power LED and nothing shows up in device manager. Got all the appropriate drivers and everything installed per the instructions. I'm sure it's probably a user error on my part. This is my first time messing with STM. My experience is more with MSP430s so this is a bit of a step up in complexity.
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 13029
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by AndreyB »

did you flash firmware? do you have DFU drivers? did you switch board to DFU mode?
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

AndreyB wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 am
did you flash firmware? do you have DFU drivers? did you switch board to DFU mode?
Good call! Talked with mck1117 and did some troubleshooting. Even with the DFU drivers and everything I couldn't get the console to work. Ended up using stm32cube programmer to manually install the firmware. Everything works great though!

Here's the final board assembled with the adapter (well, I need to solder the jumper for 12V selection still).

Image

I still need to grind down those spots in the stock case and put some sort of non-conducting barrier between the bottom case and the board so nothing shorts. I will send some conformal coating spray with it so that once the unit is verified it can be coated since the case isn't exactly waterproof. Of course the baro sensor and a few things will need to remain uncoated.

Overall though I think things are progressing nicely!
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Finally got everything mapped out in Tuner Studio. The only thing needed at this point is the trigger, which AndreyB is graciously helping me understand.

Then I'll get the case and everything buttoned up, and all that should be needed to start the engine is hooking everything up, adding the wideband and 3 bar map sensor, calculating the TPS, and probably messing around with the IAC solenoid!
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Finally got the tune uploaded. This is again my first stab at Rusefi and Tunerstudio so hopefully it's decent.

The pin mapping is correct, and I'm hoping the settings are as well, though I know the ford idle solenoid is natorious on tunerstudio to be tricky so hopefully I can iron that out later.

Many thanks to Andrey for helping with the PIP signal which will be validated when it's on the car, but looks good so far!

Anyone with any experience is requested to glance over my settings so hopefully this thing doesn't catch on fire first fire! :lol:

https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=641
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 13029
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by AndreyB »

image.png
image.png (10.43 KiB) Viewed 5124 times
This trigger wheel knows which cylinder is which and they say it's inside the distributor? Would it be CAM sensor than?

One day we will improve this window to not even ask for the value in case of well-known setups but for now please change it as long as it makes sense to change it?

Are you ready to crank it without fuel to see if you read cranking RPM?
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
wstefan20
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Github Username: wstefan20

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

AndreyB wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:31 pm
This trigger wheel knows which cylinder is which and they say it's inside the distributor? Would it be CAM sensor than?
Good call. Thanks for catching that! I'll change that now.
AndreyB wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:31 pm
Are you ready to crank it without fuel to see if you read cranking RPM?
Unfortunately this is for my friend's project and I ended up moving half-way across the US, which complicates matters.

The original intent was to get it done asap, but my friend is currently buying his first house, so with all those expenses, I'm not sure when this'll actually see use.

I might see if I can meet anyone down here in FL to see if they'd like to try one out, but I haven't seen many foxbody's down here unfortunately.

Though I'll try to work some magic and do some persuasion to move things along! :lol:

I think he's intending on using the autotune feature, so I'll just keep doing research on tunerstudio for now.

Unfortunately all my projects are in storage since I'm currently stuck in an apartment until this crazy market levels out a bit. Whenever that is... :roll:
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 13029
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by AndreyB »

wstefan20 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:37 pm
Unfortunately all my projects are in storage since I'm currently stuck in an apartment
Can I interest you in https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2120? Also Slack registration http://rusefi.com/slack/
login https://rusefi.slack.com/
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Post Reply