1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

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wstefan20
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mk e wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:18 pm
That is by far the best solution. You won't ever regret having spare I/O or having a setup that is fully supported.....and its still 1/2 the price of the less capable MS PnP so pretty good there too.
I should be specific, I still will be doing an adapter board, but using proteus.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

AndreyB wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:12 pm
We are 3-8 weeks away from https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1913 potentially changing the hardware reality of rusEFI.
Is there any additional info on this? Should I just wait to use this platform?
mck1117
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:54 pm
AndreyB wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:12 pm
We are 3-8 weeks away from https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1913 potentially changing the hardware reality of rusEFI.
Is there any additional info on this? Should I just wait to use this platform?
Nobody knows anything about it. Apparently it was developed in secret which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:58 pm
Nobody knows anything about it. Apparently it was developed in secret which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Strange. I share your sentiment since this is supposed to be an open source project, but I'm sure there were reasons. For now I'll stay neutral since I'm new :lol:
mk e
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mk e »

wstefan20 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 pm

I should be specific, I still will be doing an adapter board, but using proteus.
Winner winner chicken dinner

Nothing at all wrong with that plan. When you look at the higher end ecus that's how they all do PnP, standard ecu with an adapter of some kind so everyone is using the same HW, it's the only way to support this kind of stuff, you know you have proven HW on every install so any issue with how the car runs is something with the car.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mk e wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:06 pm
Winner winner chicken dinner

Nothing at all wrong with that plan. When you look at the higher end ecus that's how they all do PnP, standard ecu with an adapter of some kind so everyone is using the same HW, it's the only way to support this kind of stuff, you know you have proven HW on every install so any issue with how the car runs is something with the car.
:lol: I think you've missed a few posts then since that's been the plan for a little while now! Now I've just got to double down and figure out the differences between KiCad and Eagle. Looks though most of the features are the same though.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mk e »

wstefan20 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:16 pm


:lol: I think you've missed a few posts then since that's been the plan for a little while now!
I misread I guess, I thought you were still on about a custom proteus but with an adapter. Sorry....off the shelf+adapter is a fine plan
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mk e wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:19 pm
I misread I guess, I thought you were still on about a custom proteus but with an adapter. Sorry....off the shelf+adapter is a fine plan
All good! On the same page now! Hopefully I can get this mapped out in a day or two!
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Looks like the cheapest alternative to headers is something like this:

https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/copper-brass-and-bronze/shape~rod-and-disc/diameter~1-16/

I'm going to be using Delrin to insulate the pins as well as be a nice spacer between boards:

https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/3841

It should only be a minor inconvenience to do it this way, and should be much cheaper than the alternative of cutting open connectors. Doubles by looking pretty good too! :D
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Well, in case anyone was interested, I've been playing around with KiCad, and so far, I'm not really liking it too much, but it also isn't as bad of a transition as I thought. Working with libraries is a pain, and having to link and name everything manually is a pain.

I also caught a problem referenced in the forum for the 60 pin connector. The original designer flipped the pins so pin 1 is actually pin 60 etc., and it was killing my OCD so I fixed it.

Below is the basic outline of the board with the corrected connector (It's too zoomed out to see, but trust me, the pins are correct now).

Image

Just got to keep trucking! Slow progress because I have to keep Googling how to do stuff vs Eagle.

I'm going to try to cram everything towards the front as much as possible so that I can eliminate wasted space and reduce cost of the board. For now, I might as well see what space I have to work with.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:32 pm
Working with libraries is a pain, and having to link and name everything manually is a pain.
link and name manually? huh?
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:34 pm
link and name manually? huh?
Fusion 360 and Eagle auto assign designators (J1, U2, etc.) to components, and it also automatically syncs the footprints with the schematic symbol. You also don't need to generate the netlist, and the design rule checker is a bit more complete.

Again, I'm probably just being nitpicky being pampered by using Fusion360 Eagle. It's worth little inconveniences like that to not pay $80+ per month, but if I weren't loosing access to Fusion I'd 100% be using it still...
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:13 pm
mck1117 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:34 pm
link and name manually? huh?
Fusion 360 and Eagle auto assign designators (J1, U2, etc.) to components, and it also automatically syncs the footprints with the schematic symbol. You also don't need to generate the netlist, and the design rule checker is a bit more complete.

Again, I'm probably just being nitpicky being pampered by using Fusion360 Eagle. It's worth little inconveniences like that to not pay $80+ per month, but if I weren't loosing access to Fusion I'd 100% be using it still...
Kicad does that too - it just does it only when you push the button telling it to do so.

Push the button with the pen on paper. That will assign designators.
image.png
image.png (8.01 KiB) Viewed 7797 times
You also don't have to manually generate a netlist, just go to the PCB editor, and hit this button:
image.png
image.png (1.17 KiB) Viewed 7797 times
wstefan20
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:34 am
Kicad does that too - it just does it only when you push the button telling it to do so.

Push the button with the pen on paper. That will assign designators.

image.png
:lol: The tutorial I was looking at must have been pretty old then because that button doesn't exist in the video. Thanks for saving me a ton of time!
mck1117 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:34 am
You also don't have to manually generate a netlist, just go to the PCB editor, and hit this button:

image.png
Thanks! Now I feel like that old man who complains about a minor inconvenience. :lol: I will say that I'm starting to like it more, but eagle just has some really cool features I miss and it doesn't look like windows xp to boot! haha but in the end it's way better than paying for features I don't 100% need.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Definitely working way slower than I usually do, but I'm starting to get the hang of KiCad! Mind you that this is about as simple of a design as you can get :lol:

Here's the progress:

Image

Here's the schematic (don't worry, netlist is all connected, just hid so it didn't look too messy):

Image

I plan on ordering an ECU to double check the placement before I finalize the design and send for production, but should be close enough for me to route the wires.

Not much to look at yet, but I double checked all the pins to everything and it is all correct. I ended up wiring the corresponding pins to the one's I planned on not needing to wire at all (emissions stuff) with their stock function (except pin 38 thermactor air bypass solenoid which I left blank because I ran out of lowside switches) which still allows for extra features to replace them, but also reduced the complexity which will in turn reduce the cost. The remaining pins from Proteus I will wire to two 16 pin connectors (.1" spacing so it's pretty standard) which can be jumpered to db15 connectors if desired. This allows for the user to "upgrade" beyond the avaliable 60 pins, but again keeps cost down. I'm sure the pins provided will probably make 90% of the target audience happy enough as is.

With this approach you could quite literally plug the 100% stock wiring harness and not modify or disconnect literally anything and it run fine, which will be good for the Cali guys who need to pass emissions.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Oh, and if anyone knows how to fix the GND pin has no source error, please let me know!

I looked on a few forums and tried adding a +12V power symbol to a few pins, adding a pspice voltage symbol both with and out power and ground symbols with even more errors. I know it's probably something simple that I'm missing.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

You mean an ERC failure complaining that the ground pin has no power supply? You can suppress that with a "power flag" (search that in the component picker) and wire to to the GND net.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:58 pm
You mean an ERC failure complaining that the ground pin has no power supply? You can suppress that with a "power flag" (search that in the component picker) and wire to to the GND net.
You're a genius! :D Thanks!
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Very very crude routing. All 12mil traces at the moment just to get an idea of trace routing. I'm not a huge fan of how I routed this. Any suggestions for improvement (aside from increasing trace width obviously)?

Obviously I do have ground fill, just hidden for viewing.

Image
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:39 pm
Very very crude routing. All 12mil traces at the moment just to get an idea of trace routing. I'm not a huge fan of how I routed this. Any suggestions for improvement (aside from increasing trace width obviously)?

Obviously I do have ground fill, just hidden for viewing.
Analog/digital inputs can stay small traces - they don't pass significant current. Injector/relay/whatever outputs do however need bigger than 12 mil. Route highest current first, then noise sensitive (trigger, mostly), then everything else.

would rotating the Proteus board help at all with routing?
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:49 pm
Analog/digital inputs can stay small traces - they don't pass significant current. Injector/relay/whatever outputs do however need bigger than 12 mil. Route highest current first, then noise sensitive (trigger, mostly), then everything else.

would rotating the Proteus board help at all with routing?
Very True. I intend on keeping your trace widths of 1.27mm for High Side Switches and 5V Reference, 0.762mm for Low Side Switches, and 2.032mm for 12V.

I tried rotating, and it actually made the routing worse from what I could see. I hate having to cross all of these digital and analog signals, but it should still be ok.

Since this board will reside inside of a closed case, I didn't really see an advantage to adding status LEDs since you won't see them anyhow.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:00 am
Very True. I intend on keeping your trace widths of 1.27mm for High Side Switches and 5V Reference, 0.762mm for Low Side Switches, and 2.032mm for 12V.
I would go wider if you can - remember those traces on the board are VERY short so they can't make very much heat/resistance.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:14 am
I would go wider if you can - remember those traces on the board are VERY short so they can't make very much heat/resistance.
What trace width would you recommend? Using a trace calculator, assuming the max trace length of 5inches on 1oz copper fr4 with a 20C temperature rise, 2mm is good for around 2.65Amps of current at 12V which I'm assuming is more than sufficient? The other traces will be carrying much less than that at their max when calculated. Is this just a safety margin?
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Well, went back and increased trace width appropriately. At least according to calculations it should be able to handle the max current plus some without putting off too much heat. I had to play around with pin-assignments for hours and hours, but this layout is 1000 times cleaner. Any suggestions are welcome! :D

Image
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

Trucking along on this design! I ordered a donor ECU off eBay for $17 including shipping (they surprisingly cost more at my local junkyards) to make final measurements!

Once I get the measurements from the donor to verify the design, and unless anyone speaks up about anything they'd like for me to change, I'll order a batch of 5 for testing!

In the meantime, I have uploaded a repo: https://github.com/wstefan20/5.0mustangProteusPnP

Image
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

Looking good!

You can move this 12V MR trace to the back and avoid needing all those vias:
image.png
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

Also, do you really want the main 12v and 12v MR both connected together? If the ECU has a pin switched by the main relay, you want that one connected to 12V_MR, and the ignition switch connected to the other.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:09 am
Looking good!

You can move this 12V MR trace to the back and avoid needing all those vias:
Haha good eye! I finished this at midnight so I was bound to miss something! Thanks!
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by wstefan20 »

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:10 am
Also, do you really want the main 12v and 12v MR both connected together? If the ECU has a pin switched by the main relay, you want that one connected to 12V_MR, and the ignition switch connected to the other.
Hmm. I saw the stuff about the main relay in the wiki but wasn't sure if it was needed. The stock wiring has a battery constant which I assumed 12V was, and a hot in run and start which I assumed was the same as 12V_MR? I do have them wired separate on the board. Any reason to use a relay specifically? And what triggers it? Sorry. Probably just not understanding something simple.
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Re: 1986 Ford Mustang 5.0 EFI swap

Post by mck1117 »

wstefan20 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:42 pm
Hmm. I saw the stuff about the main relay in the wiki but wasn't sure if it was needed. The stock wiring has a battery constant which I assumed 12V was, and a hot in run and start which I assumed was the same as 12V_MR? I do have them wired separate on the board. Any reason to use a relay specifically? And what triggers it? Sorry. Probably just not understanding something simple.
You already have a main relay, it's labeled "EEC Power Relay" on the wiring diagram. The ECU doesn't need constant 12v - just switched 12v from the ignition switch (this one is pretty low power - maybe 100mA draw), and the 12V_MR pin, which is for higher power stuff on the ECU, to be powered by an external relay. The ECU switches the main relay on after starting up itself using whatever normal output you have configured for it.
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