VAG ME7.5 build

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mck1117
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:44 am
I'm not sure how? When USB is plugged in, the ETB doesn't work with the ignition on. Is there a way to not have the usb power the ecu?
The ETB should still work. It's disabling itself because it detected an inconsistency between the primary and secondary (redundant) position sensors.

Try turning the ignition on, and pressing the "auto calibrate TPS 1" button and see what happens.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

AndreyB wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:57 am
Can you power ECU via ignition first and only than plug USB?
Im not sure, but will try tomorrow evening.


mck1117 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:59 am
The ETB should still work. It's disabling itself because it detected an inconsistency between the primary and secondary (redundant) position sensors.

Try turning the ignition on, and pressing the "auto calibrate TPS 1" button and see what happens.
Hmmmm, that makes sense. How much of a variance is allowed between the two sensors? Ill try that again tomorrow after work. Thanks!
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:02 am
AndreyB wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:57 am
Can you power ECU via ignition first and only than plug USB?
Im not sure, but will try tomorrow evening.
The ETB controller doesn't store any history about errors, so I don't think that will have an impact.
deaner wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:02 am
Hmmmm, that makes sense. How much of a variance is allowed between the two sensors? Ill try that again tomorrow after work. Thanks!
I think it's currently 5%. The debug channel you picked will show the split between the two sensors on the gauge called "TPS 1 Pri/Sec Diff", which I why I asked for that. With the ignition off, yours were different by <0.5% (good), but with the ignition on, the split is ~6.6%.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

Ahhhh gotcha. I thought that's what "TPS 1 Pri/Sec Diff" was, just wasnt sure what the variance is. Is there a thread or article to read through on the debug channels and how they work? I havent had a chance to search yet, so please forgive me if there are obvious ones out there.

The error between the two sensors, when does that actually trigger? When the throttle is actually moved or just by voltage differences at rest? It resets with a power cycle?
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by AndreyB »

We have https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Debug-Fields which is maintained manually thus gets out of date all the time :(

Maybe we need to code generate that https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Debug-Fields page from the relevant section of the .ini file, not 100% sure

We probably need to embed a bit more of ETB user details right into TS project since it definitely has the tools for that.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

Does the selected "Debug mode" add those fields to be logged? Or can you see them real time while trouble shooting?
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by AndreyB »

Both
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mck1117
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:16 pm
The error between the two sensors, when does that actually trigger? When the throttle is actually moved or just by voltage differences at rest? It resets with a power cycle?
it checks every time the sensors are updated - currently 500 times per second, if the throttle is moved or not. And as far as the ECU was concerned, your throttle actually did move when you turned the key on: the voltages changed because the supply voltage went from 4.whatever volts to a regulated 5.0.

The throttle controller then checks "did the TPS for my throttle fail?" and if so, disables the throttle to prevent a toyota-style runaway.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

Not sure how I missed it but yeah...recalibrated the ETB with the key on and it's now working like it should. Made some awwwwwwwesome progress tonight! It runs! Still boat loads of work yet to do BUT its idling!
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:17 am
Not sure how I missed it but yeah...recalibrated the ETB with the key on and it's now working like it should. Made some awwwwwwwesome progress tonight! It runs! Still boat loads of work yet to do BUT its idling!
Sweeeeet! Getting to idle is the hardest part, everything else is "easy"!
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by AndreyB »

welcome to the club!

next step is getting it drive nicely
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

Baby steps lol. First base file I've ever built from scratch so there was lots of head scratching haha. But it runs! Woot woot!

Can someone explain exactly how the open loop idle % slider works? I thought it was % of throttle opening but it's not seeming so? I couldnt get this thing to stay running without throttle input until I moved that bar to 100%. It stayed idling at 1400rpm and I pulled fuel until it settled around 900rpm. Ran out of time for the night to really dig into it. Thanks!
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

With an ETB, the idle position is multiplied by the "etb idle range" (don't remember the exact name, it's something like that) setting. Make that bigger if you need more idle control authority
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

If I'm understanding this right, the "open loop idle position" is the percentage of "ETB Idle range?" Example, "ETB idle range is set to 5% and "open loop idle position" is set to 75%, the throttle will be physically open 3.75%? Its basically replicating an idle screw yeah?
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

deaner wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:44 pm
If I'm understanding this right, the "open loop idle position" is the percentage of "ETB Idle range?" Example, "ETB idle range is set to 5% and "open loop idle position" is set to 75%, the throttle will be physically open 3.75%? Its basically replicating an idle screw yeah?
Never mind, I just verified that seems to be the case. 🍻
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

Tinkered with the tune a bit and have a pretty steady idle. The IAT is in the manifold so I'm seeing weird stuff with VE. Where can I find the fuel calculations(equation) for proteus? I havent had a chance to dig through the .ini yet, figured it may be posted somewhere but I cant find it. Idle VE numbers seem awfully high(90-100), but I'm unsure if it's the way the fuel calcs are done or if I'm just seeing hardcore heat soak . I'm done messing with it until I can change the oil, hopefully in the next couple of days I can get it on the street! Getting some low load/crusing data should tell me right away.

Also....bia resister for temp sensors. Can someone tell me what's in the proteus? Coolant temp seems to be reading right when cold in regard to ambient air temps but IAT doesnt match. I 'know' scaling is correct as its straight off my other ecu which reads correctly. Both IAT and CLT are set to 2700 as default.

Thanks!
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by AndreyB »

a post like this should really contain a urlnof latest tune and a url of a sweet log?
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

AndreyB wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:25 pm
a post like this should really contain a urlnof latest tune and a url of a sweet log?
I can post something up later this evening when I get home from work. Information is scattered all over the place and FW seems to update so quickly, it's tough to find certain things sometimes, so I just ask.

Is the fuel equation posted somewhere? Same with finding the right bias resister setting in proteus? Not looking to have my hand held or for someone to tune, just info so I can better understand how the ecu does what it does. 🍻
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by AndreyB »

I do not think that FW changes at all these days to be honest, not in the areas which would affect fuel calculation.

I have a feeling the we use "standard" SD without explicitly documenting it?

I assume Proteus default config already has correct bias value in it, I would assume it to be 2.7K?
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mck1117
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:58 pm
I do not think that FW changes at all these days to be honest, not in the areas which would affect fuel calculation.

I have a feeling the we use "standard" SD without explicitly documenting it?

I assume Proteus default config already has correct bias value in it, I would assume it to be 2.7K?
yeah, the 2.7k default is correct
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by Abricos »

deaner wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:17 pm
Tinkered with the tune a bit and have a pretty steady idle. The IAT is in the manifold so I'm seeing weird stuff with VE. Where can I find the fuel calculations(equation) for proteus? I havent had a chance to dig through the .ini yet, figured it may be posted somewhere but I cant find it. Idle VE numbers seem awfully high(90-100), but I'm unsure if it's the way the fuel calcs are done or if I'm just seeing hardcore heat soak . I'm done messing with it until I can change the oil, hopefully in the next couple of days I can get it on the street! Getting some low load/crusing data should tell me right away.

Also....bia resister for temp sensors. Can someone tell me what's in the proteus? Coolant temp seems to be reading right when cold in regard to ambient air temps but IAT doesnt match. I 'know' scaling is correct as its straight off my other ecu which reads correctly. Both IAT and CLT are set to 2700 as default.

Thanks!
What car, year, engine,?
2000 vw audi 1.8t have 2 or 3 coolant temperature sensor
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Last edited by Abricos on Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
mck1117
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:17 pm
Idle VE numbers seem awfully high(90-100), but I'm unsure if it's the way the fuel calcs are done or if I'm just seeing hardcore heat soak . I'm done messing with it until I can change the oil, hopefully in the next couple of days I can get it on the street! Getting some low load/crusing data should tell me right away.
Stuff to check on:
  1. do the CLT and IAT readings seem reasonable on a "fully cold" engine? do they both read within a few degrees of each other?
  2. is the fuel pressure what you think it is? are the injectors flowing what you think they should be?
  3. is your injector deadtime set correctly? (high VE suggests it may be set too low)
  4. what's your fuel stoich ratio set to? Normal US-market pump gas should be set to 14.1:1.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by Abricos »

also with air temperature sensor
one is in the intake manifold,the second can be in the intercooler ...
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

Abricos- Coolant and IAT are both what the factory ecu sees. CLT in back of head and IAT at manifold. Engine is an ATW but with AWM harness for wideband.

Checklist....
1) No, they're off by a substantial amount. That was one of the first things I noticed before even firing the car for the first time. IIRC something like 20* difference.

2)Base fuel pressure is 43.5psi and verified with gauge. As for them flowing what they should, I dont have much reason to believe they arent but it's not beyond the realm.

3)Deadtime is set to the data sheet I got with the injectors. I'll check again what I had them set to in my other ecu. Now that its mentioned, I think I may have had to manipulate them a lil on my other ECU. Good call.

4)This may be an issue. I have it set to 14.7.

Once I change the oil I'm going to start from square one checking deadtimes and sensor scaling again. When hot swapping ecus (proteus and ignitron), I get different readings with the same scaling. IECUs scaling leaves a couple degrees variance while Proteus is off a fair amount. Honestly, could totally be my own errors as I was chasing just getting the car to start and run. May have just rushed through and then got sucked into just getting a running car.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by AndreyB »

deaner wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:40 pm
1) No, they're off by a substantial amount. That was one of the first things I noticed before even firing the car for the first time. IIRC something like 20* difference.
Please confirm that you speak Celsius.
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by deaner »

I dont, but my ecu does...😁 Yes, temp is in Celsius.
mck1117
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

If you post your tune at rusefi.com/online we can have a look and see if anything glaring is wrong :)
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:14 pm
what's your fuel stoich ratio set to? Normal US-market pump gas should be set to 14.1:1.
I've see a lot of debate on that point, here's one post I found helpful:
Based on this, Stoich for pure 93 octane gasoline is 14.7, So on 93 octane with 10 percent Ethanol, my AFR is 12.8 at 6500 rpm and has a lambda value of .90/12.8 AFR because it has 10 percent ethanol (14.13 Stoich). .90 x 14.13 = 12.8 AFR on E10. .90 x 14.7 = 13.2 AFR on 93 octane.

If I run 100 octane, Stoich is 13.9 and I have a 12.8 AFR at 6500 rpm, it should compute like this. 12.8/14.7 x 13.9 = 12.1 AFR. 12.1/13.9 = .87 lambda. It helps a lot. I go from a 12.8 AFR on E10 and a .90 lambda to a 12.1 AFR and an .87 lambda. At 5500 rpm on 100 octane, I'm at 11.7 AFR, with a .84 lambda. I have Sunoco 260Gt 100 octane available right up the street (it 'aint cheap). This definitely affects your safety margin.

I pulled this fuel information off of a tuner site.

"Ever wonder if your airfuel will change with race gas? The answer is; Yes. Real gasoline has various different Stoich points due to the blend, how much ethanol is in it, etc. It is somewhere between 14.1 and 14.7. Finding the information on race gas isn't easy. It is not posted anywhere on the internet that I have found. VP does not publish it, nor does Sunoco (TurboBlue)."

"Several weeks ago I got in touch with the chemist at VP and got all the Stoich points of their fuels. Last week I got in touch with a Sunoco chemist and got the data from him as well. When I asked the guy from Sunoco why they don't publish the information on the TurboBlue website he said, "Eric, you're right, Stoichiometry is important. Fact is many people have no idea what it is; kudos to you for knowing."

"Unfortunately, many folks we talk to think the Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio is where they should set their fuel system at wide open throttle. So we are torn about posting or not posting Stoichiometry data because of that potential problem. Shocking right? Especially when you see how different the fuels are; Here is a list of the ones I have gathered."

Sunoco MO2X UL: 14.5
Sunoco 260 GTX: 14.4
Sunoco 260 GT: 13.9
Sunoco 260 GT Plus: 13.7
Sunoco Standard: 14.8
Sunoco Supreme: 14.9
Sunoco MO2X: 14.5
Sunoco HCR Plus: 14.8
Sunoco Maximal: 15.0
Sunoco MaxNOS: 14.9
Turbo Blue Unleaded (100 octane): 13.9:1
Turbo Blue Unleaded Plus (104 octane): 13.7:1
Turbo Blue 110: 14.7:1
Turbo Blue Advantage: 14.9:1
Turbo Blue Extreme: 15.0:1
VP Street Blaze 100: 14.16
VP C10: 14.53
VP 110: 15.09
VP C16: 14.77
VP MS109: 13.41

"Back to pump gas.... While I had the Sunoco guy's ear, I tried to get an answer about the Stoich of their fuel and to find out how much actual Ethanol is in it, when the label says up to 10%... Here are his comments..."

"I know plenty about pump gas, enough to say that there is no useful Stoichiometry data on pump gas. Composition varies WAY too much, regardless of brand/refinery/etc... especially on the lower octane grades. But I can tell you that Sunoco 94, which is very hard to find these days, will contain some ethanol."

"Per the first sentence, it will depend on the blend though. I would go out on a limb and say it is nearly 10% most of the time (keep in mind 10% is the max allowed by law). Street gas blends change all the time thanks to environmental requirements (fed/state/local), seasonal adjustments, and price pressures."
One point to add to it is ethanol is expensive so I would guess they add as little as they can and meet EPA rules and 10% is the max they are allowed, not the actual % and probably not the norm so stoich is not lower than 14.1 and with pump gas not higher than 14.7 but I have no idea where in that range it falls....and the error will wash into the VE table during tuning. I try to stick to 1 brand fuel because I tend not to use closed loop.
mck1117
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mck1117 »

ethanol is cheaper than gas (thanks, corn subsidy), not more expensive, so I suspect it really is about 10% all the time
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Re: VAG ME7.5 build

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:14 pm
ethanol is cheaper than gas (thanks, corn subsidy), not more expensive, so I suspect it really is about 10% all the time
Not sure. The last Pres was handing out a lot of waivers to refiners who were claiming cost but straight up $/gallon you're right. It could just be oil companies are in the oil business and make profit on the oil products vs paying for the ethanol. They also change the mix by season, winter fuel is really close to the 10% I'd bet. Don't know but I've never seen anyone commit to a number other than under 10%.

I guess the moral is we should all be running flexfuel sensors and closed loop.
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