BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

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Zeiss
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Yesterday I picked up Andrey's package from the post office, the customs office took forever.... I will then adjust the configuration for the M70 and order a few plugs and wires :)
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by tomazcebul »

Zeiss wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:03 am
This looks really good, but won't work for the M70. Directly under the ETBs are the valves of the crank case ventilation, there is no more room. On the M73 is the crankcase ventilation at the back.

Here you can see it, more or less well:

grafik.png

I'd say I'll keep the stock ETBs for now and replace them later if necessary. But will still generate the second signal for Proteus.

I'm going to replace the ignition distributors with COPs, these ones:

grafik.png

grafik.png

They are NGK COPs, known from the VW TSI and TFSI engines. They are TTL COPs, do not need an external igniter, only two times 12V, GND and ignition signal. Dwell time is <2ms. And they are cheap, one costs round about 20€ in Germany.

Another question about the crank and cam sensors. M70 has a crank sensor at the front on the vibration damper. It is an induction sensor. It should not be a problem.

Here you can see them:

grafik.png

Then, the M70 has a so-called cylinder identification sensor. It sits on the ignition wire of the sixth cylinder. Due to the fact that I have no more ignition cables, I need a replacement here. What can I use best? And what kind of triggering, a half moon, a tooth, ...?
Great job :D . Did you manage to check if the short VW COP will fit into E31 engine bay, especially Cylinder 6 and 12? Do you have a plan to create a bracket which will hold those COP's in place? I'm asking as I have E31 with M73 waiting for similar procedure....

Thx & Best Regards, Tomaz
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Zeiss
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Hey Tomaz,

first of all, please check this github (is my own): https://github.com/HeinrichG-V12/M70_rusEFI/blob/main/hardware/ignition_coils.md Here you can find some infos about COPs, like pinning and sizes. There are long/normal/short COPs. The short COP (140mm over all length) protrudes approx. 70mm from the cylinder head and fits perfectly the engine bay without colliding with anything. On the driver's side, the brake booster or brake cylinder is the problem, there is not so much space.

At the moment we (a colleague here from the forum and I) are considering a mount for the COP, I think it will be something like that:
grafik.png
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It's just an idea, we will see. The idea is to bolt this brackt on cylinder head.
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by tomazcebul »

Hi Heinrich,

VAG Short COP's don't have a possibility to screw them to a bracket, so the bracket would most probably need to be designed similar as those
image.png
image.png (1.21 MiB) Viewed 10193 times
to provide more support for COP's to stay in place. Maybe we can use cylinder head cover bolts and construct a bracket holder to keep everything in place.

Thx. I have seen the GitHub content. Great Work!

Best Regards, Tomaz
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Yes you're right, my plate was just an example.
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

this is what i use... LS coils on my M73
image-1.png
image-1.png (335.2 KiB) Viewed 10137 times
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by tomazcebul »

LS coils are good option, however it is very hard to get used ones in Europe. New LS coils are quite expensive here :( .
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by tomazcebul »

Hi Heinrich,

I have checked injectors page on your git and saw that you plan to replace EV1 injectors with EV6 injectors. Based on the injector data (attached excel) we could also use latest Bosch 0280158034 oor 0280158035 EV14 injectors for M70/M73 engines and standalone ECU. This is EV14 CL injector with same fuel spray pattern and physical dimensions.
Bosch_Injector_data.xls
(745.5 KiB) Downloaded 182 times
EV14-Data sheet_67797771_Injection_Valve_EV_14.pdf
(1.08 MiB) Downloaded 171 times
Thx & Best regards, Tomaz
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

tomazcebul wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:16 am
LS coils are good option, however it is very hard to get used ones in Europe. New LS coils are quite expensive here :( .
absolutely correct. I also did not want to have ignition cables, that would be the absolute last option if nothing else works. Alternative would be the 6-way coils from a VR6, there then only wasted spark is possible and you need the ignition cables. But these are also available as TTL (Beru ZSE004, ZSE013).
tomazcebul wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:30 pm
Hi Heinrich,

I have checked injectors page on your git and saw that you plan to replace EV1 injectors with EV6 injectors. Based on the injector data (attached excel) we could also use latest Bosch 0280158034 oor 0280158035 EV14 injectors for M70/M73 engines and standalone ECU. This is EV14 CL injector with same fuel spray pattern and physical dimensions.Bosch_Injector_data.xls
EV14-Data sheet_67797771_Injection_Valve_EV_14.pdf

Thx & Best regards, Tomaz
Hello Tomaz,

Actually, I did not plan to replace the injectors. In 2018, during the engine overhaul, I installed 12 overhauled injectors, ultrasonically cleaned, with new caps and seals, and matched to each other. I have 0280150715 installed, these are no longer available from Bosch and Bosch offers the newer 0280156346 instead of 0280150715 as it says in the git.

Thanks you very much for excel and pdf!

I am currently designing the harness and waiting for the harness from an M73 from which I will use the connectors and etc..
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Simon@FutureProof »

We managed to get some pretty good pattern coils from Maxpeeding rods, they seem to be working as a factory outlet for a lot of stuff now.

Think they were ~£85 for 8.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

One day eventually we would need https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/3680

I know that a dirty hack on the lambo replica was an equalizing pipe right?
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Zeiss
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Not eventually, pretty sure :) If two ETBs, then they need to be synchronized.
Thank you!
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by kartsan »

Thanks Zeiss for the throttle sync ideas. I was originally considering using EML to do the job. After all, I believe they have really tested that feature profoundly so that would save a lot of time. Now I am now planning to use only one Proteus. If I understand it right, BMW uses just start-of-injection signals to sync the throttles in EML?
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Zeiss
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

You're welcome. I think it's an important feature for engines with two throttles.

Proteus + EML: I think, it is better to let Proteus control the whole engine. The effort to link Proteus with EML would far exceed the benefit.

Yes, it is correct, BMW used ti-Signal directly, but air flow is also involved too, implicitly.

Here is the descriptio from "Electrical trobleshooting manual BMW 8-series":
grafik.png
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And here is the translation (becaouse it is in German) from technical documentation for Motronic 1.2 and 1.7:
Motronic 1.2/1.7 wrote: Synchronization / 12-cylinder engine (M70)
-> The synchronization of both cylinder banks at idle is based on the air flow.
-> Both DMEs have this information converted from their hot-wire air mass meters into the opening pulse ti.
-> In addition to controlling the injection valves, the Motronic SGs report the ti signals to the EML SG.
-> If the ti signals differ from each other, the EML-SG concludes that the air throughput is different.
-> Synchronization starts - both DK actuators are controlled in opposite directions.
"ti signal" means: injection signal, so "start of injection" signal.

But, I don't understand why:
  • why "start of injection" and not "injection duration"?
  • why not air flow / air mass directly?
The ETB sync is only intended to ensure that both banks receive the same amount of AIR (in this case air mass).
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

I have finally found the right PWG and have already received it:
grafik.png
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It is wired like this:
grafik.png
grafik.png (36.25 KiB) Viewed 9617 times
Should we add the circuit and type of this to the wiki? I can create a PR if desired. Or is it "too special" thing? This pedal position sensor (PPS) is used in the cars with M54 and M62, the next generator of PPS (=sensor is integrated into gas pedal) is wired quite similar:
grafik.png
grafik.png (42.59 KiB) Viewed 9617 times
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

When want to add wiki info do not doubt add wiki info :)
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

I believe that Matt has made some progress - we have manual second throttle table https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/pull/4472

Open question what else is needed to close https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/3680
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Hey Andrey,

correct, we've got manual throttle sync with the help of the trim table.

To close #3680 we need:
-> support for second MAF
-> automatic sync based on air mass

That's it :)

@Matt: thank you very much!
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Heinrich

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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by kartsan »

Hello guys, anyone making progress with the COP bracket? I made some measurements and I'm thinking the bracket might be like that M30 bracket here: https://e28goodies.com/product/coilpack-rail-stainless/

Won't be that easy though. M70 heads are different so attachment to the head need to be changed. Not to mention that VAG COPs need a cup like mentioned before. However, this idea might work. Comments?

I'm planning on buying these parts for my 730. Much easier starting point for me to educate myself than going straight to M70, which is my goal eventually.

Image
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