BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

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Zeiss
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BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Hello all,

my name is Heinrich, I'm 39 years old, I'm from Stuttgart and I've owned a 1991 BMW 850i for 15 years. At my old employer I was working with ECU calibration and ECU application for about 15 years. In my spare time I program microcontrollers (Atmega 8bit, NXP LPC13xx/LPC17xx and recently STM32F4), work with CAN and MOST (still have a 2006 BMW E66 760Li), .....

The car has 180,000km on it at the moment and the engine was overhauled in 2018. It is an M70 with 5 liters of displacement. The engine control system is a squeezed Motronic 1.7 and an EML for the electronic throttle. The non-skinned Motronic has no distributor, but has multiple ignition outputs.

For years I have been watching the development of the Megasquirt, especially Megasquirt 3, and have been toying with the idea of throwing out the Motronic and replacing it with MS3. But, MS is hardly developed further, support is not really good, the hardware, .... well... In short: MS3 is dead. The original idea was just to replace DME with MS3 but keep EML, because of the electric throttle bodies.Then somehow that doesn't really make sense either.

Then I came up with rusEFI, by chance I saw a video on Youtube with a M73. Cool, I want to have that! The specs of the Proteus read like it was built exactly for the M70, a dream. Thanks a lot for that!

So, what would I like? Actually pretty much everything Proteus can do.... :)

The following sensors are installed on the M70:
  • at the crankshaft: there are two inductive sensors installed here. I think I only need one of them?
  • MAF: originally the engine had two hot wire MAF sensors. I replaced them with two HFM7 (hot film MAF, digital, frequency modulated) and adapted the signal with a microcontroller for the DME. I have the datasheet for the HFM7. The HFM7 also has an IAT sensor in it, but it is currently not used.
  • IAT & CLT: two CLT and IAT sensors each
  • Lambda probe: there are two narrow-band probes in it.
My goal is to have the engine with full sequential ignition and fuel injection, so that's probably not a problem. I want to use NGK 48042 COP, the Dwell times (1.8ms @ 12v and 1.3ms @ 16v) are known. They are 5v TTL COPs. There is only one potentiometer on the gas pedal, not two opposing potentiometers as on the M73. There are no stepper motors in the throttle bodies, but normal motors which can be controlled with an H-bridge. TPS is also only one potentiometer per throttle body, not two counter-rotating potentiometers as in the M73.

That should be absolutely no problem for Proteus.

Now, what I have not yet fully understood:
  • MAF: Can I keep my digital HFM7 or do I need analog MAFs (suitable HFM5)?
  • Lambda probes: Proteus does not have a controller for a wideband probe, correct? That means I need two controllers? How are they connected, via CAN or analog 0-5v?
  • CLT and IAT: do I still need two CLT and two IAT sensors or only one each?
  • how are the throttle bodies synchronized? If at all.
  • do I need one (or two?) camshaft sensor for full sequential ignition or is the sensor on the crankshaft enough?
  • I need then some more digital and analog signals (as input and output) for the rest of the car, for example for automatic transmission. But that can be clarified at a later time.
Right now I'm reading the documentation and the forum posts and I'm absolutely impressed.
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Welcome to rusEFI!
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
Then I came up with rusEFI, by chance I saw a video on Youtube with a M73. Cool, I want to have that! The specs of the Proteus read like it was built exactly for the M70, a dream. Thanks a lot for that!
Hah, I designed it to work with my V8, but threw in some extra hardware so a V12 would be easy too :)
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
My goal is to have the engine with full sequential ignition and fuel injection, so that's probably not a problem. I want to use NGK 48042 COP, the Dwell times (1.8ms @ 12v and 1.3ms @ 16v) are known. They are 5v TTL COPs. There is only one potentiometer on the gas pedal, not two opposing potentiometers as on the M73. There are no stepper motors in the throttle bodies, but normal motors which can be controlled with an H-bridge. TPS is also only one potentiometer per throttle body, not two counter-rotating potentiometers as in the M73.
Hmm, single sensors on the pedal/throttles is actually a problem. We require dual redundant sensors for safety, as do all OEMs these days. It should be pretty easy to replace them with newer throttles/pedal that have dual sensors (six total: two per throttle, two for the pedal).
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
MAF: Can I keep my digital HFM7 or do I need analog MAFs (suitable HFM5)?
It's actually preferred to ditch the MAFs all together, and install one MAP sensor per bank. Speed density is currently better supported on rusEFI.
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
Lambda probes: Proteus does not have a controller for a wideband probe, correct? That means I need two controllers? How are they connected, via CAN or analog 0-5v?
Correct, no internal controller on Proteus. You can do either CAN or analog - the current preferred wideband controller is the AEM X-Series, either inline (no gauge) or gauge version. They control the sensor the same and emit the same CAN information, only difference is whether you want a gauge face to look at.
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
CLT and IAT: do I still need two CLT and two IAT sensors or only one each?
One each should do just fine.
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
how are the throttle bodies synchronized? If at all.
Right now, they aren't. Each is independently calibrated against the stops, but there's no active balancing today. It is worth wiring both load measurements (MAP/MAF) up to the ECU, though, as this is something we could/will add eventually.
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
do I need one (or two?) camshaft sensor for full sequential ignition or is the sensor on the crankshaft enough?
You need one crank sensor, plus one cam sensor. You can toss the second crank sensor of course, as that's not necessary when running a single ECU.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by stefanst »

Hallo Heinrich,

Welcome to rusEFI. It looks like you should be able to rusEFI both your V12s without any trouble.
I am a bit surprised though that you are allowed to run two BMW V12 in Stuttgart. I would have expected an angry mob would have lynched you years ago now.

I will leave answering your questions to the better qualified people here, but from what I can see, your project should be fairly straightforward.

Stefan
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
still have a 2006 BMW E66 760Li
I bet your is nicer than mine? https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1845
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Welcome to rusEFI!
Thanks a lot!
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
Then I came up with rusEFI, by chance I saw a video on Youtube with a M73. Cool, I want to have that! The specs of the Proteus read like it was built exactly for the M70, a dream. Thanks a lot for that!
Hah, I designed it to work with my V8, but threw in some extra hardware so a V12 would be easy too :)
As you can see, it was a very good idea! A V12 only needs a few more outputs than a V8. The M70 is actually a double M20. The M73 is a bit different, more advanced.
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
My goal is to have the engine with full sequential ignition and fuel injection, so that's probably not a problem. I want to use NGK 48042 COP, the Dwell times (1.8ms @ 12v and 1.3ms @ 16v) are known. They are 5v TTL COPs. There is only one potentiometer on the gas pedal, not two opposing potentiometers as on the M73. There are no stepper motors in the throttle bodies, but normal motors which can be controlled with an H-bridge. TPS is also only one potentiometer per throttle body, not two counter-rotating potentiometers as in the M73.
Hmm, single sensors on the pedal/throttles is actually a problem. We require dual redundant sensors for safety, as do all OEMs these days. It should be pretty easy to replace them with newer throttles/pedal that have dual sensors (six total: two per throttle, two for the pedal).
Okay, that sounds less nice. Is it not possible to connect the respective signals to both inputs and thus suggest to the Proteus that there are two sensors? The system with one sensor has worked absolutely flawlessly for over 30 years in a lot of vehicles.

On the other hand, I can take the pedal sensor from the M73, it has two counter-rotating potentiometers in it, that would fit.
The throttle bodies from the M73 would also fit very well, have two counter-rotating potentiometers. The problem here will be the control, they have a stepper motor inside...

Proteus has an H-bridge control, correct?

The problem is, we have MOT. If anything on the engine doesn't look stock, they start asking questions.... so the easier way is to use the original (M70 or M73) parts. The throttle bodies of M70 and the M73 look very similar.
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
MAF: Can I keep my digital HFM7 or do I need analog MAFs (suitable HFM5)?
It's actually preferred to ditch the MAFs all together, and install one MAP sensor per bank.
What is the reason for this? The advantage of MAF is that you can see the exact air mass. The evaluation of a HFM7 is very simple.I have used for my HFM7 input capture timer and calculated the air mass from it (using a cubic polynomial but resolved to Hornet, no exponentiation, but only multiplication). With this value, you can then continue to reach (injection amount) and do not need any tables.
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Speed density is currently better supported on rusEFI.
For speed density I need two MAP sensors. This should not be a problem.
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
Lambda probes: Proteus does not have a controller for a wideband probe, correct? That means I need two controllers? How are they connected, via CAN or analog 0-5v?
Correct, no internal controller on Proteus. You can do either CAN or analog - the current preferred wideband controller is the AEM X-Series, either inline (no gauge) or gauge version. They control the sensor the same and emit the same CAN information, only difference is whether you want a gauge face to look at.
Nice, is there a DBC file for this?
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
how are the throttle bodies synchronized? If at all.
Right now, they aren't. Each is independently calibrated against the stops, but there's no active balancing today. It is worth wiring both load measurements (MAP/MAF) up to the ECU, though, as this is something we could/will add eventually.
That sounds good. The Motronic balances the throttle bodies via MAFs.You bring the engine up to a certain rpm (I think it was 2000 rpm), the Motronic then measures the amount of air at the two MAFs and adjusts the throttle bodies so that the values match (with a small deviation).
mck1117 wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
do I need one (or two?) camshaft sensor for full sequential ignition or is the sensor on the crankshaft enough?
You need one crank sensor, plus one cam sensor. You can toss the second crank sensor of course, as that's not necessary when running a single ECU.
What kind of trigger do I need on the camshaft then? A half moon (like the M73) or simply a tooth?

Thank you for the explanation!
stefanst wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:32 pm
Hallo Heinrich,

Welcome to rusEFI. It looks like you should be able to rusEFI both your V12s without any trouble.

I will leave answering your questions to the better qualified people here, but from what I can see, your project should be fairly straightforward.
Hello Stefan, Thanks a lot!

Yes, it all sounds super good. With Megasquirt it was mostly, don't go... or forget it....
stefanst wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:32 pm
I am a bit surprised though that you are allowed to run two BMW V12 in Stuttgart. I would have expected an angry mob would have lynched you years ago now.

Stefan
Well, there are some corners in Stuttgart where you shouldn't park with such cars, especially not with the 8 Series. It can happen that it has a few more scratches or dents. But it's actually very relaxed here, even though we have a green government in Baden-Württemberg. :D
AndreyB wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:50 pm
I bet your is nicer than mine? https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1845
Hello Andrey, yours looks a bit demolished. :D Sorry.

Here is mine:
001.jpg
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It is a 2006 Individual and so called "Special Edition Exclusive carbon black / Merino gold brown".
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

So where are we with the M70 project?

Is the biggest challenge at the moment the throttle bodies?

On my M73 I know it was up to triple redundancy are you sure you have only single position sensor? https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/BMW-e38-750#eml

But the real problem of my M73 original EML was the fact that was were steppers not DC motors. Are you sure that yours being previous generation to M73 is not stepper but DC-motor?

Considering how rare are stepper throttle bodies we chose not to support those in the firmware :( Also best Proteus can do in terms of outputs would be one not two steppers even if we had software.


Thanks to @stefanst I actually have a Proteus unit to ship today which does not happen often these days :(
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

AndreyB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:39 pm
So where are we with the M70 project?

Is the biggest challenge at the moment the throttle bodies?
Yes, it seems to be so.
AndreyB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:39 pm
On my M73 I know it was up to triple redundancy are you sure you have only single position sensor? https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/BMW-e38-750#eml
Yes, I'm. The Motronic 1.7 and EML 1.2 have a rather primitive design. The M70 has been built since 1987, when it was not as far along as it is now. The M70 in the E32 (it was the first generation of M70) was controlled by a Motronic 1.3 (2x DME and 1 EML)!

Here you can see the schematic of throttle bodies control and TPS:
grafik.png
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You see one DC motor (no stepper) and one TPS, that's it. The throttle body is controlled with a PWM signal, I believe 200Hz or something like that. I can measure it with an oscilloscope, I will have to anyway to control it properly.

Here you can see the pedal position sensor, also quite simple:
grafik.png
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AndreyB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:39 pm
But the real problem of my M73 original EML was the fact that was were steppers not DC motors. Are you sure that yours being previous generation to M73 is not stepper but DC-motor?
Yes, absolutely, as you can see in the schematic. As far as I know, the M73 was the only engine with the stepper motors in the throttle body control. All the ones after that had a DC motor.
AndreyB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:39 pm
Considering how rare are stepper throttle bodies we chose not to support those in the firmware :( Also best Proteus can do in terms of outputs would be one not two steppers even if we had software.
As you can see, it is not even necessary. As you say, the stepper motors are very rare.
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Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

So let's think out loud:

* rusEFI requires two TPS signals because that's the proper way
* rusEFI actually validates that calibrations do not match to make sure that those are in fact two different sources
* your M70 is a genuine case of a single TPS OEM setup

It looks like both of those worlds could meet with a help of a small number of resistors? But for the sake of liability let's not elaborate on those resistors count, value and placement further on this public forum.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by OrchardPerformance »

Fitting an M73 pedal would be a very good idea.

I will take a look into the sensors on the M70 throttles, there may be a better way around things
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

I have an M73, and i put on the Nissan / hitachi throttle bodies. they bolt on without an adapter plate. just have to enlarge the holes to make it fit.
You really cannot tell them from a stock setup. especially used ones that are already dirty .
same on gas pedals. nobody on earth will be able to tell the upgraded one from stock.
both ETB and pedals run about $30 ea - in usa.

if you are going to tear out the stock ECU, then that will be much more noticable than the ETB or the throttle pedal.

the stock ecu is THREE boxes. and the proteus is ONE smaller box.
The ECU would be my biggest worry for MOT.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

notice the new ETB?
it blends right into the engine. nobody will notice that.

having removed all the spark plug wires and installed either COP or LS style coils is much more noticeable .
IMG_20200714_100721918.jpg
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

AndreyB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:16 pm
So let's think out loud:

* rusEFI requires two TPS signals because that's the proper way
* rusEFI actually validates that calibrations do not match to make sure that those are in fact two different sources
* your M70 is a genuine case of a single TPS OEM setup

It looks like both of those worlds could meet with a help of a small number of resistors? But for the sake of liability let's not elaborate on those resistors count, value and placement further on this public forum.
Well, resistor network is really quick and dirty "solution"... I would prefer to create an opposite signal, with a differential amplifier, but it is not for public forum, you are right.
OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:19 pm
Fitting an M73 pedal would be a very good idea.
This is my opinion too.

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:19 pm
I will take a look into the sensors on the M70 throttles, there may be a better way around things
Thank you very much!
bill wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:53 pm
I have an M73, and i put on the Nissan / hitachi throttle bodies. they bolt on without an adapter plate. just have to enlarge the holes to make it fit.
You really cannot tell them from a stock setup. especially used ones that are already dirty .
This sounds pretty good and seems to be a real option! Do you have a number of the ETBs or what engine are they from?
bill wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:53 pm
the stock ecu is THREE boxes. and the proteus is ONE smaller box.
The ECU would be my biggest worry for MOT.
In the 8-series, you have an ECU box where the three ECUs are inside. You can't see the ECU at all from the outside.

Here you can see them:
grafik.png
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I have an ECU from an E39 with a 134pin connector in it. I want to use a rusEFI adapter for 134 pin and put the whole thing in an original housing.

Do you have a picture from the front where I can see both ETBs properly?
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

Zeiss wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:04 pm
This sounds pretty good and seems to be a real option! Do you have a number of the ETBs or what engine are they from?
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-M73-v12-on-Proteus says
Nissan Hitachi SERA576-01 60mm throttle body recommended. In order to mount SERA576-01 you just need to drill ETB bolt passages to 10mm / 3/8".
Matching Nissan bolts are useful, OEM M73 are too short.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

shows same ETBs on my M73
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

AndreyB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:13 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:04 pm
This sounds pretty good and seems to be a real option! Do you have a number of the ETBs or what engine are they from?
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-M73-v12-on-Proteus says
Nissan Hitachi SERA576-01 60mm throttle body recommended. In order to mount SERA576-01 you just need to drill ETB bolt passages to 10mm / 3/8".
Matching Nissan bolts are useful, OEM M73 are too short.
I just see that it won't work with the Nissan ETBs. They will collide with the hood and I can't get them closed. :( It sucks...
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Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

you can rotate the ETB 180 degrees, so its pointed down. works fine either way.

i got mine off two Nissan maxima v-6. the junkyards around here had 5 of them the day i showed up. very common.

also, Andrey likes the distributor, but i took mine out and use LS coils .
much more modern.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

This looks really good, but won't work for the M70. Directly under the ETBs are the valves of the crank case ventilation, there is no more room. On the M73 is the crankcase ventilation at the back.

Here you can see it, more or less well:
grafik.png
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I'd say I'll keep the stock ETBs for now and replace them later if necessary. But will still generate the second signal for Proteus.

I'm going to replace the ignition distributors with COPs, these ones:
grafik.png
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grafik.png
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They are NGK COPs, known from the VW TSI and TFSI engines. They are TTL COPs, do not need an external igniter, only two times 12V, GND and ignition signal. Dwell time is <2ms. And they are cheap, one costs round about 20€ in Germany.

Another question about the crank and cam sensors. M70 has a crank sensor at the front on the vibration damper. It is an induction sensor. It should not be a problem.

Here you can see them:
grafik.png
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Then, the M70 has a so-called cylinder identification sensor. It sits on the ignition wire of the sixth cylinder. Due to the fact that I have no more ignition cables, I need a replacement here. What can I use best? And what kind of triggering, a half moon, a tooth, ...?
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

I believe that consensus on this forum is that full sequential is overrated.

But firmware is flexible and any shape would work if you insist :)
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by OrchardPerformance »

The standard solution used on the M20 engines will serve you well here.
That is to replace the distributor rotor with a trigger wheel/tooth and trigger a Hall sensor using that.
Common OEM hall sensor is the M54 cam sensor, it looks identical to an OEM BMW crank sensor and uses the same type of plug as the cylinder identification wire.
Being a 3 wire sensor you can use the stock wiring to provide the 12v, signal and ground on the shield, it is what I use in mine.
image.png
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Now keeping MRE and Proteus in stock in the UK, PM or slack for details.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:03 am
Then, the M70 has a so-called cylinder identification sensor. It sits on the ignition wire of the sixth cylinder. Due to the fact that I have no more ignition cables, I need a replacement here. What can I use best? And what kind of triggering, a half moon, a tooth, ...?
Sort of whatever will work. We're edge triggered for single-tooth-cam, so a half moon and single tooth are functionally identical. That said, it's not strictly required, since you can run the engine in wasted spark mode (firing pairs of coils 360 degrees apart in the firing order) even with individually wired coils. There's little to no benefit of "full sequential" over wasted spark on an engine like this.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

AndreyB wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:07 pm
I believe that consensus on this forum is that full sequential is overrated.

But firmware is flexible and any shape would work if you insist :)
I've read that a few times too, on the Megasquirt forum. That's more like "while you're at it"....
OrchardPerformance wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 am
The standard solution used on the M20 engines will serve you well here.
That is to replace the distributor rotor with a trigger wheel/tooth and trigger a Hall sensor using that.
Common OEM hall sensor is the M54 cam sensor, it looks identical to an OEM BMW crank sensor and uses the same type of plug as the cylinder identification wire.
Being a 3 wire sensor you can use the stock wiring to provide the 12v, signal and ground on the shield, it is what I use in mine.
Thank you, I like this solution and will do it exactly the same way.
mck1117 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:44 am
Zeiss wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:03 am
Then, the M70 has a so-called cylinder identification sensor. It sits on the ignition wire of the sixth cylinder. Due to the fact that I have no more ignition cables, I need a replacement here. What can I use best? And what kind of triggering, a half moon, a tooth, ...?
Sort of whatever will work. We're edge triggered for single-tooth-cam, so a half moon and single tooth are functionally identical. That said, it's not strictly required, since you can run the engine in wasted spark mode (firing pairs of coils 360 degrees apart in the firing order) even with individually wired coils. There's little to no benefit of "full sequential" over wasted spark on an engine like this.
I like that very much! That means I can use waste spark at the beginning but wire the COPs individually. And later I install the camshaft sensor and configure it to full sequential without changing anything in the wiring. I would do the wiring for the camshaft sensor from the beginning but not install a sensor.

I like that very much! That means I can use waste spark at the beginning but wire the COPs individually. And later I install the camshaft sensor and configure it to full sequential without changing anything in the wiring. I would do the wiring for the camshaft sensor from the beginning but not install a sensor.

Those would be the correct settings for individually wired COPs with wasted spark:
grafik.png
grafik.png (24.41 KiB) Viewed 1532 times
Correct?

Regarding wiring: I will make a new motor wiring harness, designed only for Proteus, completely new. The problem with the old is that the insulation is brittle and broken. This was already an issue when the engine was overhauled. The car is already 30 years old.

Thank you very much for this marvelous support!
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 am
I like that very much! That means I can use waste spark at the beginning but wire the COPs individually. And later I install the camshaft sensor and configure it to full sequential without changing anything in the wiring. I would do the wiring for the camshaft sensor from the beginning but not install a sensor.


Those would be the correct settings for individually wired COPs with wasted spark:
Yep, looks exactly like an older config for my V8 (before I too enabled the cam input and switched to sequential mode!): https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=400&dialog=ignitionSettings

Fun fact: Even in sequential mode, we start the engine in wasted spark mode, so we can fire the engine before we've seen an edge on the cam sensor! Then, once we've seen the cam sensor, we transition seamlessly to sequential mode.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 am
Regarding wiring: I will make a new motor wiring harness, designed only for Proteus, completely new. The problem with the old is that the insulation is brittle and broken. This was already an issue when the engine was overhauled. The car is already 30 years old.
Oof, good idea. Does your car also have the famed biodegradable wiring harness? I have two Volvos from the same era, and the engine harness on those is also a major liability.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:26 am
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 am
I like that very much! That means I can use waste spark at the beginning but wire the COPs individually. And later I install the camshaft sensor and configure it to full sequential without changing anything in the wiring. I would do the wiring for the camshaft sensor from the beginning but not install a sensor.


Those would be the correct settings for individually wired COPs with wasted spark:
Yep, looks exactly like an older config for my V8 (before I too enabled the cam input and switched to sequential mode!): https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=400&dialog=ignitionSettings

Fun fact: Even in sequential mode, we start the engine in wasted spark mode, so we can fire the engine before we've seen an edge on the cam sensor! Then, once we've seen the cam sensor, we transition seamlessly to sequential mode.
I like this rusEFI Online library, there you can look at other configurations if you are not sure. :)
mck1117 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:37 am
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 am
Regarding wiring: I will make a new motor wiring harness, designed only for Proteus, completely new. The problem with the old is that the insulation is brittle and broken. This was already an issue when the engine was overhauled. The car is already 30 years old.
Oof, good idea. Does your car also have the famed biodegradable wiring harness? I have two Volvos from the same era, and the engine harness on those is also a major liability.
I think the problem is simply that the wiring harness is just old. And the heat in the engine compartment does the rest. Sooner or later, all insulation breaks down over time. We have the same problem with our headlights, where the wiring harnesses also like to break and there are then short circuits. The wire in the cabin, on the other hand, is all absolutely okay.

For example, I have the problem that when it's wet, i.e. in the rain or after washing, the engine goes into emergency mode. This means only 6 cylinders and the transmission permanently in third gear...

Another question: how does Proteus know which sensors and actuators belong together? So, how the banks are "configured"? We have 12 cylinders, two ETBs, 12 COPs, one crankshaft sensor, one cam sensor, two MAF/MAP sensors and two WBOs. How does Proteus know that, for example, first ETB, cylinders 1 to 6, COPs 1 to 6 and first WOB belong to bank1 and the rest to bank2? Or does it not matter?
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:21 am
Another question: how does Proteus know which sensors and actuators belong together? So, how the banks are "configured"? We have 12 cylinders, two ETBs, 12 COPs, one crankshaft sensor, one cam sensor, two MAF/MAP sensors and two WBOs. How does Proteus know that, for example, first ETB, cylinders 1 to 6, COPs 1 to 6 and first WOB belong to bank1 and the rest to bank2? Or does it not matter?
Well, today, there's no way to configure which MAP is which since we only support one :) It's worth installing and wiring both, since that's on the todo list for us to implement eventually, at least to log both if not independently calculate fueling for each bank.

WBO, however, has a settings page to configure for each cylinder, which lambda sensor sees its exhaust. Today, the only thing this matters for is closed loop fuel correction. Each bank of cylinders is corrected independently using its corresponding lambda sensor.

Fast forward to my current V8 configuration, I have two lambda sensors, one per bank, similar to your engine's layout. So I have it configured like this: https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=660&dialog=cylinderBankSelect
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

Ahhh, okay, I see. I have overseen this setting.

What is this assignment based on? On the firing order? The firing order on the M70 is 1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10, the cylinder order is as shown in the picture:
grafik.png
grafik.png (854.42 KiB) Viewed 1519 times
Important: The numbering on the picture is mirror-inverted! The left ETB is responsible for the right cylinder bank and vice versa. The intake manifolds are M70, just like the M73, crossed.

In my case it would probably be like this:
grafik.png
grafik.png (18.24 KiB) Viewed 1519 times
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 am
Ahhh, okay, I see. I have overseen this setting.

What is this assignment based on? On the firing order?
Those are just ordinary cylinder numbers, not firing order position. My engine is numbered sequentially down the crank, so all the odd number cylinders are on the same bank, and use the same O2 sensor.

Firing order is completely separate - there's a separate setting to pick the firing order for your engine. All other settings in rusEFI use the "true" cylinder number, as you've marked on the engine.
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 am
Important: The numbering on the picture is mirror-inverted! The left ETB is responsible for the right cylinder bank and vice versa. The intake manifolds are M70, just like the M73, crossed.
Yes - I'd make the right hand intake #1, so that cylinder 1 uses ETB1, lambda 1, MAP 1, etc.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

You got it backwards on cyl bank

the bank #1 is on the passenger side
but the INTAKE for bank #1 you marked is on the opposite side
the intake is a cross flow style
intake for bank #1 is on drivers side
spark plug for cyl #1 is on passenger side

12 Cylinder numbering is 1 through 6 on passenger (right) side and 7 through 12 on driver (left) side. numbers 1 and 7 are at the front, 6 and 12 are at the rear.
Ignition firing order is 1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10.
Bank-1 is the passenger side (cylinders 1 through 6), bank-2 is the driver side (cylinders 7 through 12).
1 9 5 11 3 7
F x x x x x x
2 10 6 12 4 8
F x x x x x x
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

also, the M73 has a built in CAM sensor
the cam sensor is at the front of bank 2

not sure if the M70 is the same or different
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 am


Regarding wiring: I will make a new motor wiring harness, designed only for Proteus, completely new. The problem with the old is that the insulation is brittle and broken. This was already an issue when the engine was overhauled. The car is already 30 years old.
Me too!
let me know where you buy your connectors/ etc for the new wiring harness
i need to buy some also
thanks!
bill
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