BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

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Zeiss
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

bill wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:51 pm
You got it backwards on cyl bank

the bank #1 is on the passenger side
but the INTAKE for bank #1 you marked is on the opposite side
the intake is a cross flow style
intake for bank #1 is on drivers side
spark plug for cyl #1 is on passenger side
Absolutely correct, here is my text for this:
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 am
Important: The numbering on the picture is mirror-inverted! The left ETB is responsible for the right cylinder bank and vice versa. The intake manifolds are M70, just like the M73, crossed.
So exactly the same. The picture is correct.
bill wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:51 pm
12 Cylinder numbering is 1 through 6 on passenger (right) side and 7 through 12 on driver (left) side. numbers 1 and 7 are at the front, 6 and 12 are at the rear.

Ignition firing order is 1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10.
Bank-1 is the passenger side (cylinders 1 through 6), bank-2 is the driver side (cylinders 7 through 12).
1 9 5 11 3 7
F x x x x x x
2 10 6 12 4 8
F x x x x x x
It is exactly what the picture shows or here one time more:
grafik.png
grafik.png (1.1 MiB) Viewed 1579 times
Injectors and ETBs are crossed, the ignition plugs are "normal".
bill wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 am


Regarding wiring: I will make a new motor wiring harness, designed only for Proteus, completely new. The problem with the old is that the insulation is brittle and broken. This was already an issue when the engine was overhauled. The car is already 30 years old.
Me too!
let me know where you buy your connectors/ etc for the new wiring harness
i need to buy some also
thanks!
bill
Are ypu looking for some special connectors? I think the biggest probleme here will be to get the big round connectors (the connectors to the rest of the car) and the connectors for ETBs.
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:23 am
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 am
Ahhh, okay, I see. I have overseen this setting.

What is this assignment based on? On the firing order?
Those are just ordinary cylinder numbers, not firing order position. My engine is numbered sequentially down the crank, so all the odd number cylinders are on the same bank, and use the same O2 sensor.

Firing order is completely separate - there's a separate setting to pick the firing order for your engine. All other settings in rusEFI use the "true" cylinder number, as you've marked on the engine.
Zeiss wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 am
Important: The numbering on the picture is mirror-inverted! The left ETB is responsible for the right cylinder bank and vice versa. The intake manifolds are M70, just like the M73, crossed.
Yes - I'd make the right hand intake #1, so that cylinder 1 uses ETB1, lambda 1, MAP 1, etc.
Thank you very much for this explanation!

Regarding the connection of Proteus to the rest of the car. Other ECUs need certain data from the EML/DME1/DME2 network to function properly. Here is the logical circuit:
grafik.png
grafik.png (195.82 KiB) Viewed 1575 times
We imagine that DME-SG I, DME-SG II and EML are no longer there and are replaced by Proteus. This means that we must either generate or respond to the following signals (from top to bottom):

WK: torque converter clutch. EGS (Trani ECU) tells the two DME the status of the clutch, open or closed.
ME: engine intervention / ignition angle intervention, active only during gear shifting.
TR: speed signal (three pulses per crankshaft revolution, square wave signal)
ASC/MSR: two functions:
-> MSR: end thrust cut-off, if active
-> ASC: ignition angle adjustment in late direction
ASC/ZAB: ignition and injection are faded out
TD: speed signal (one pulse per ignition, square wave signal)
DKR: throttle reduction, one PWM signal (approx. 100Hz), reduction of throttle opening angle
DKE: throttle increase, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), increase of throttle opening angle
DKV: throttle setting, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), position of accerator pedal

That's a lot... do we have enough GPIOs? :D
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

We can always use second Proteus or two extra microRusEFI as CAN port extenders. This was not done yet but that's useful firmware to add as long as you have a legit use-case.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

This sounds good, a Proteus as master and microRusEFI as slave / GPIO Externder, then we have more then enough GPIOs.

I saw a video where you connected two microRusEFI via CAN and controlled two ETBs with one pedal sensor. I think we need something like that here.

In the next days I would buy a Proteus. It is possible to get version 0.6?
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Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
We imagine that DME-SG I, DME-SG II and EML are no longer there and are replaced by Proteus. This means that we must either generate or respond to the following signals (from top to bottom):

WK: torque converter clutch. EGS (Trani ECU) tells the two DME the status of the clutch, open or closed.
ME: engine intervention / ignition angle intervention, active only during gear shifting.
TR: speed signal (three pulses per crankshaft revolution, square wave signal)
ASC/MSR: two functions:
-> MSR: end thrust cut-off, if active
-> ASC: ignition angle adjustment in late direction
ASC/ZAB: ignition and injection are faded out
TD: speed signal (one pulse per ignition, square wave signal)
DKR: throttle reduction, one PWM signal (approx. 100Hz), reduction of throttle opening angle
DKE: throttle increase, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), increase of throttle opening angle
DKV: throttle setting, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), position of accerator pedal

That's a lot... do we have enough GPIOs? :D
i don't know how much you are attached to the automatic transmission...
if you want to keep it looking "stock"

but you can swap the tranny for a 6 speed manual transmission .

the procedure is in my forum post...
pretty simple with a V8 transmission... just cut a few bits on the bellhousing, and re-weld.
then you don't have to do the automatic transmission programming.

https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1749&start=120
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
We imagine that DME-SG I, DME-SG II and EML are no longer there and are replaced by Proteus. This means that we must either generate or respond to the following signals (from top to bottom):
"must" is a relative term. For proper transmission operation, it probably just requires TR and DKV from the ECU. ABS should still work without anything, and will certainly work with TD at most. You don't reeeeally need to respond to traction control requests if you don't care about that.
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
WK: torque converter clutch. EGS (Trani ECU) tells the two DME the status of the clutch, open or closed.
I guess this is just so the ECU can change pedal feel with locked TC? I bet we can ignore this completely.
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
ME: engine intervention / ignition angle intervention, active only during gear shifting.
Do we know what kind of signal is on this line? Do you have an oscilloscope or logic analyzer you can connect while driving the car around a bit?

We should probably actually obey this one, as it helps the gearbox shift to the next gear without too much clutch wear (and makes it smoother!).
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
TR: speed signal (three pulses per crankshaft revolution, square wave signal)
TD: speed signal (one pulse per ignition, square wave signal)
DKV: throttle setting, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), position of accerator pedal
These are all easy enough, we have a built in scripting environment on the ECU (in the Lua language), so emitting arbitrary frequency/duty PWM based on this stuff is pretty simple.
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
ASC/MSR: two functions:
-> MSR: end thrust cut-off, if active
-> ASC: ignition angle adjustment in late direction
ASC/ZAB: ignition and injection are faded out
DKR: throttle reduction, one PWM signal (approx. 100Hz), reduction of throttle opening angle
DKE: throttle increase, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), increase of throttle opening angle
Ignore? Do you need traction control?
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
"must" is a relative term.
You are right, let us say "should" :)
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
For proper transmission operation, it probably just requires TR and DKV from the ECU.
I think so too.
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
ABS should still work without anything, and will certainly work with TD at most.
In principle, yes, but doesn't ABS intervene in engine management? Something like, if ABS regulates, then disable injection and / or ignition?
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
You don't reeeeally need to respond to traction control requests if you don't care about that.
In the first step(s) is ASC not the priority.
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
WK: torque converter clutch. EGS (Trani ECU) tells the two DME the status of the clutch, open or closed.
I guess this is just so the ECU can change pedal feel with locked TC? I bet we can ignore this completely.
Bosch/BMW documentation says:
Bosch/BMW wrote: As soon as the torque converter clutch is closed, the DME control units are caused to switch to a different ignition map.
In deed, I think we can ignore that.
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
ME: engine intervention / ignition angle intervention, active only during gear shifting.
Do we know what kind of signal is on this line? Do you have an oscilloscope or logic analyzer you can connect while driving the car around a bit?
Yes, it is just an active low signal (GND during switching process). But I have both an oscilloscope and a logic analyzer to analyze this signal (and also other signals, first of all PWM frequency on ETBs).
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
We should probably actually obey this one, as it helps the gearbox shift to the next gear without too much clutch wear (and makes it smoother!).
Yes, you are right, BMW/Bosch documentation says:
Bosch/BMW wrote: The EGS control unit transmits a signal to the DME control units during the switching process that causes ignition angle retardation (torque reduction). This ensures a smooth transition to the newly selected gear.
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
TR: speed signal (three pulses per crankshaft revolution, square wave signal)
TD: speed signal (one pulse per ignition, square wave signal)
DKV: throttle setting, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), position of accerator pedal
These are all easy enough, we have a built in scripting environment on the ECU (in the Lua language), so emitting arbitrary frequency/duty PWM based on this stuff is pretty simple.
Wow, I am really impressed, this is very very nice!
mck1117 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 pm
Zeiss wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:46 pm
ASC/MSR: two functions:
-> MSR: end thrust cut-off, if active
-> ASC: ignition angle adjustment in late direction
ASC/ZAB: ignition and injection are faded out
DKR: throttle reduction, one PWM signal (approx. 100Hz), reduction of throttle opening angle
DKE: throttle increase, one PWM signal (approx 100Hz), increase of throttle opening angle
Ignore? Do you need traction control?
In a first step we can ignore them, it is "nice to have", except ABS-Signal (see above, thrust cut-off during ABS active for example).

Yesterday I ordered Proteus from Andrey and I'm looking forward to it. :)
Regards,
Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?

just curious
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm
In principle, yes, but doesn't ABS intervene in engine management? Something like, if ABS regulates, then disable injection and / or ignition?
I guess? But in practice, I don't think I've ever felt it (or noticed it). I've certainly heel-toed an ND Mazda and mk3 Focus on track while ABS was active, and it felt normal. Maybe a "last ditch" effort from the ABS controller to stop the car if it thinks you're still on the throttle or something.
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm
Yes, it is just an active low signal (GND during switching process). But I have both an oscilloscope and a logic analyzer to analyze this signal (and also other signals, first of all PWM frequency on ETBs).
Yes, that would be very helpful to get a trace of what they're doing during some normal driving.

ETB PWM frequency isn't too important, it actually matters more for the driver chip in the ECU and EMI than it does the throttle itself. The throttles are just brushed DC motors, which don't really care so long as it's "fast enough".
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm
Yesterday I ordered Proteus from Andrey and I'm looking forward to it. :)
Excellent!
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?
Yes, more or less.

Probably definitely not a ton of C/C++ custom code. Most of the stuff and maybe all of this stuff has to be implemented in Lua. Cases like that need to start pulling Lua forward.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:01 am
bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?
Yes, more or less.

Probably definitely not a ton of C/C++ custom code. Most of the stuff and maybe all of this stuff has to be implemented in Lua. Cases like that need to start pulling Lua forward.
The 3-minute eyeball of the requirements says that Lua should be able to do it today without any changes to C++.

This would certainly be a super awesome real world Lua usage.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
Correct.

The engine harness is connected to the car via three 20-pin connectors. The transmission control unit is connected to another harness. So 3-4 wires from Proteus will be connected to the transmission control unit, exactly as OEM.
bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?
I hope this requirement can be done with some custom code, yes.
bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
just curious
Why?
mck1117 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 am
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm
In principle, yes, but doesn't ABS intervene in engine management? Something like, if ABS regulates, then disable injection and / or ignition?
I guess? But in practice, I don't think I've ever felt it (or noticed it). I've certainly heel-toed an ND Mazda and mk3 Focus on track while ABS was active, and it felt normal. Maybe a "last ditch" effort from the ABS controller to stop the car if it thinks you're still on the throttle or something.
I see, then I think we can ignore them for now.
mck1117 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 am
Zeiss wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm
Yes, it is just an active low signal (GND during switching process). But I have both an oscilloscope and a logic analyzer to analyze this signal (and also other signals, first of all PWM frequency on ETBs).
Yes, that would be very helpful to get a trace of what they're doing during some normal driving.
Yes, I will definitely take some measurements before removing the OEM ECUs, or I will just unplug the original harness but leave it in when playing around with Proteus.
mck1117 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 am
ETB PWM frequency isn't too important, it actually matters more for the driver chip in the ECU and EMI than it does the throttle itself. The throttles are just brushed DC motors, which don't really care so long as it's "fast enough".
I believe the ETB PWM frequency is something round about 200Hz or so. So pretty slow but seems to be "fast enough".
AndreyB wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:01 am
bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?
Yes, more or less.

Probably definitely not a ton of C/C++ custom code. Most of the stuff and maybe all of this stuff has to be implemented in Lua. Cases like that need to start pulling Lua forward.
I find the idea with LUA as a custom firmware extension brilliant. On the one hand it gives the customer the possibility to implement his special stuff and on the other hand it doesn't mess up the code.
mck1117 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:02 am
AndreyB wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:01 am
bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?
Yes, more or less.

Probably definitely not a ton of C/C++ custom code. Most of the stuff and maybe all of this stuff has to be implemented in Lua. Cases like that need to start pulling Lua forward.
The 3-minute eyeball of the requirements says that Lua should be able to do it today without any changes to C++.

This would certainly be a super awesome real world Lua usage.
That would definitely be a real example of what is possible.

How is the use of LUA implemented? Is it some kind of interpreter that generates C++ code from LUA code that is then integrated into the firmware (so I have to compile the firmware and flash the ecu) or how does it work exactly?

Is there anything to read about LUA, some kind of code reference?
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Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

i am curious because i have a M73, and someday it will find a new chassis...
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by OrchardPerformance »

Just in case you were not aware, the parts manual for the E32 750 lists all the engine bay plugs and they are not too expensive even direct from a dealer.

The Small square 2 and 3 pin plugs are just AMP junior power timer plugs (as is the ECU plug) some use micro power timer pins.

You may find that most of your existing plugs are ok if you repin them. Though I would say the 80s/90s BMW wiring looms are very good quality, you may get the best result just stripping back the existing loom to the minimum configuration.

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E32/Europe/750i-M70/browse/engine_electrical_system/wiring_connections/
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

Heinrich did you say that M70 uses hot wire not not fil MAF. And those hot wire sensors are only good for X number of cycles and older vehicles are reaching that X?

What about https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2426261-M70-MAF-Availability looks like they have good results with some new sensors?
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

@OrchardPerformance; Yes, all the plugs and pins are not expensive at all, that's true, and you can get almost everything directly from BMW. But I want to leave my original wiring harness untouched and just remove it. This has the advantage that I can go back if it should ever be necessary. I will ask colleagues if they have a M70 wiring harness I can have.
AndreyB wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:00 pm
Heinrich did you say that M70 uses hot wire not not fil MAF. And those hot wire sensors are only good for X number of cycles and older vehicles are reaching that X?
Yes, I did. M70 uses hot wire MAF and they have a limited service life, because this wire must be burned free (free combustion) again and again, otherwise it delivers faulty values. Here you can see this free burning:
grafik.png
grafik.png (109.07 KiB) Viewed 1452 times
AndreyB wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:00 pm
What about https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2426261-M70-MAF-Availability looks like they have good results with some new sensors?
I have never heard of it, so I can't say anything about it. I heard years ago that there is probably no really good replacement for the hot wire MAFs. If mine break, they will be replaced with digital hot film MAFs and I will generate the appropriate voltage with an MCU. A corresponding prototype (with firmware) exists as ST Nucleo and a Bosch HFM7 MAF. So it would be very little work to get this done.
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Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:40 pm
I have never heard of it, so I can't say anything about it. I heard years ago that there is probably no really good replacement for the hot wire MAFs. If mine break, they will be replaced with digital hot film MAFs and I will generate the appropriate voltage with an MCU. A corresponding prototype (with firmware) exists as ST Nucleo and a Bosch HFM7 MAF. So it would be very little work to get this done.
Orrrrr just ditch the MAFs completely, and run speed density with a MAP sensor instead :)
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

But not with the stock Motronic. :)

What do you have against MAF? They are great sensors that provide absolutely accurate air mass, regardless of ambient pressure and so on. :) The implementation with a HFM7 MAF is a joke. Measure the frequency and insert it into an equation and you have the absolute air mass.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

Simon,
do you have a good link to a tutorial for re-pinning the bmw connectors?
i could use that info
thanks!
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by bill »

Heinrich,
which cars use that bosch hfm7 ?
so i can go junkyard shopping for one..
thanks!
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by augenblick »

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:02 am
AndreyB wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:01 am
bill wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:30 pm
so if you plan on using 3 or 4 outputs for the transmission control,
then 3 of the proteus digital outputs would be routed to the transmission harness?
and custom code will be added for the transmission outputs?
Yes, more or less.

Probably definitely not a ton of C/C++ custom code. Most of the stuff and maybe all of this stuff has to be implemented in Lua. Cases like that need to start pulling Lua forward.
The 3-minute eyeball of the requirements says that Lua should be able to do it today without any changes to C++.

This would certainly be a super awesome real world Lua usage.
Presumably a code package like this would be portable to Hellen to run ignition retard for Automatics on that platform too?
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

bill wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:48 am
Heinrich,
which cars use that bosch hfm7 ?
so i can go junkyard shopping for one..
thanks!
I've no idea, sorry. But I have the Bosch nummber of this HFM7: 0 280 218 421
This sensor contains also a NTC, 2k @ 25°C. However, it is only a sensor that has the same air flow and physically the same size, or it is slightly shorter than original from the M70. To use it, you still need some electronics to generate from frequency voltage corresponding to the throughput.

@Andrey and mck1117: Is it possible to connect a custon WBO controller to the Proteus via CAN or does it have to be a rusEFI or AEM X-series? I ask because a colleague has developed a CJ125 based WBO controller (for LSU4.9) and I have implemented the CAN stack.
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Heinrich
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

Zeiss wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:13 pm
Is it possible to connect a custon WBO controller to the Proteus via CAN
It is possible to land on the Moon and go back, but it costs a lot.

You have an open source ECU so many things are possible, as long as someone invest the efforts into making that possible.

I am 100% not interested to add additional custom WBO CAN protocol into rusEFI. I would love for rusEFI Lua CAN to one day allow this and I am would be interest to develop needed code, but that's 19 years down the plan list.
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Zeiss
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

AndreyB wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:27 pm
I am 100% not interested to add additional custom WBO CAN protocol into rusEFI.
This is also absolutely not necessary, you can not support all WBOs in this world.

Our WBO controller is also an open source product. My colleague started to develop it with someone else, but then he made it a close source and my colleague didn't feel like it anymore. So he developed his own version of it, with a 0V-5V output, AFR from 10 to 20. Later came the version with CAN and that's what we're developing on.

Analog WBO: https://github.com/oelprinz-org/BL49SP
Analog + CAN WBO: https://github.com/oelprinz-org/BL49 (hardware only) and on my github: https://github.com/HeinrichG-V12/BL49 (hardware+ some C code, still in development)
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by kartsan »

Zeiss wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:40 pm
I have never heard of it, so I can't say anything about it. I heard years ago that there is probably no really good replacement for the hot wire MAFs. If mine break, they will be replaced with digital hot film MAFs and I will generate the appropriate voltage with an MCU. A corresponding prototype (with firmware) exists as ST Nucleo and a Bosch HFM7 MAF. So it would be very little work to get this done.
That is interesting. Can you tell more about that prototype and firmware? Any links?
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by Zeiss »

In the meantime I have found a suitable MAP sensor, or rather there will probably be two, one per bank. They are this sensor:
grafik.png
grafik.png (200.58 KiB) Viewed 1154 times
1Bar, JPT Plug, an OEM part.

One question: should I still install a baro sensor? Or is it not necessary?
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by AndreyB »

Very few people use baro
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mk e »

AndreyB wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:25 pm
Very few people use baro
For sure not needed but I have started installing them on anything I work on because you just get a better more versatile tune.

It is useful on street cars running speed-density, pretty much required with alpha-n street or track. On a speed-density race car you can generally tune for power across the board so it doesn't matter low MAP, High MAP can be all the same lambda and it doesn't matter what baro is doing unless fuel burn rate is a concern. On a street engine where lower MAP values mean cruise/fuel economy and higher MAP values mean power so they have different lambda values, but without baro the ECU can't tell the difference between baro changes and throttle changes so in low baro conditions you can end up with your economy tune when you wanted HP. The example is always up and down mountains, megasquirt used to do a screwball thing where they measured and stored a baro value using the MAP sensor on bootup and that caused the mountain thing to be a major issue for them with engines going stupid lean going up or stupid rich coming down, for everyone else who didn't do that foolishness it just means a loss of hp as you drive way too fast or tow way too much up the mountain.

Don't know about MAF setups, I don't mess with those.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by ssmith »

mk e wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:18 pm
AndreyB wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:25 pm
Very few people use baro
For sure not needed but I have started installing them on anything I work on because you just get a better more versatile tune.
+1 on using baro. VE changes due to exhaust backpressure, which can be captured using baro. Link G4+ has a concept of MGP (G=gauge instead of A=absolute) - computed as MAP - BARO. That is their preferred load axis for the fuel table (ignition table still uses MAP, but ideally IMO should use the estimate of air). All G4+ include an onboard baro sensor for this purpose.

Motec Mx00 series supported a load of MAP/BARO, which would be even more accurate. Turbo charger compressor maps will have this pressure ratio as an axis on the chart, but it's relevant to naturally aspirated motors too.
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Re: BMW M70 in 8 series with Proteus?

Post by mk e »

ssmith wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:53 pm

Motec Mx00 series supported a load of MAP/BARO, which would be even more accurate.
I think that is the only option in the motec M1 series. Not sure what rusEFI does with a baro input but that is what I use in my non-rusefi ecu as well (x100 to make it a %) so load is what % are you using of what is available....that goes to the use intent I was talking about....when you are at low power use the fuel saving settings, when you want everything available, use the best power settings. Again, nice but not required.
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