99 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU NOW turbo EVENTUALLY

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99 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU NOW turbo EVENTUALLY

Post by coolantbongrips »

Hello!
My personal website logging this build can be found here: https://vfrenjoyer.neocities.org

My goals with this build are to A: Make my bike faster and B: Come up with a reliable turbo setup other people can easily copy while minimizing the time spent with an unridable bike or chasing electrical/tune issues.

I have a 1999 VFR800 and while looking for ways to make it faster that don't involve spending lots of money on a centrifugal supercharger I found an old video of someone who fit a turbo on one. My first steps have been to work out engine management for which I'm currently in the process of setting up a MicrorusEFI 4.8 to plug into the stock ECU harness via a breakout board.

Here's a beautiful block diagram of what I'm attempting:
Image

This setup is a few days away from starting since during a night of partying hard I somehow sent > 7A of current through the ECU's processor and in the process also killed the TLE8888's VR signal conditioners and I'm waiting for digikey to deliver a replacement. Once I have it reliably running on the microrusEFI my plan is to completely throw away all the hard work I've put into the MRE setup in favor of a much less (installation) labor intensive solution.

RusEFI Hellen Based Plug and Play ECU for the 5th Generation VFR800
Image
What started as a project to make a breakout board that would let someone use prefabricated molex harnesses to connect to a uaEFI turned into this, which is a a Hellen based ECU that should fit in the stock ECU location and only require the addition of two WBO sensors to install. I'll order the first boards for this once I'm certain the pinout is correct and have the microrusEFI setup sorted out. I'm hoping to start work on the actual turbo install sometime in the early summer, and even without a turbo my bike should make a bit more power once tuned for 93 octane

Things I should have put in the OP but forgot to:
The MRE setup only has the cam sensor connected since there's only one VR input
Attachments
board_to_rusEFI.xls
Micro RusEFI to VFR800 wiring table
(21 KiB) Downloaded 37 times
Last edited by coolantbongrips on Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

Anything SVX Dron would approve :)
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

Funny you say that, I have a dead SVX sitting in a storage unit and just made a proteus to 96-97 OBD2 era SVX wiring table for a fellow SVX owner today.

The igniter off a SVX (22438AA050) can be added to the list of working ignition parts, and I have to imagine similar nissan versions for VG30s called "Power Transistor Modules" would also work for six cylinder sequential ignition.
Attachments
obd2svx wiring.ods
OBD2SVX-to-proteus
(154.95 KiB) Downloaded 41 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

I'm trying to set up trigger offset but don't get any spark when cranking. I've confirmed triggering the spark plugs via the bench test menu works so I assume I have the trigger set up wrong
Tune: https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=1601
Logs: https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1340
Attachments
RusEFI console while cranking
RusEFI console while cranking
2024-02-03_13_32_29_150rpm_0_maf_0.0.png (14.78 KiB) Viewed 30919 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

Not critical but trigger investigation is one area where https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/HOWTO-upload-log#data-rate is especially important - wiki has relevant screenshot now.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

Let's see... https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/All-Supported-Triggers#honda-cbr600 at the moment expects special tooth gap from 5 to 9.

In your log interesting gap ratio seems to be around 4.2
image.png
image.png (100.6 KiB) Viewed 30914 times
Let's try gap override like this:
image.png
image.png (37.13 KiB) Viewed 30914 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

I am not sure if anyone ever has used this trigger worst case we are going to be fixing it now :)

Q1: does https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/All-Supported-Triggers#honda-cbr600 look right-ish? Which of the two wheels is located where? Can you please post some photos of those wheels even if from the internet?
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

The cam sensor looks right.

The crank reluctor is missing two teeth. The right side of this wiring diagram has drawings of the crank and cam wheels and I've attached a service manual page showing what the crank and cam sensors look like

Image

Here's a new log with the gap override set as shown in the attachment
https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1342
Attachments
cam and crank wheels
cam and crank wheels
svcmancamcrank.PNG (140.03 KiB) Viewed 30910 times
gap override settings
gap override settings
gapwindow.PNG (44.63 KiB) Viewed 30910 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1030
The "CBR600" trigger appears to be based on a modified CBR600f4i crank trigger with two teeth removed, which I assume is totally unrelated to this since I don't have the crank sensor connected.
According to a wiring diagram I found the stock trigger is the same
CBR600 wiring diagram showing the same trigger as a 99 VFR800
CBR600 wiring diagram showing the same trigger as a 99 VFR800
f4itrigger.PNG (151.76 KiB) Viewed 30905 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

coolantbongrips wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 7:58 pm
since I don't have the crank sensor connected.
please elaborate. Do you plan to have crank sensor connected eventually?
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

AndreyB wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 8:05 pm
coolantbongrips wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 7:58 pm
since I don't have the crank sensor connected.
please elaborate. Do you plan to have crank sensor connected eventually?
Not with the microrusEFI as it only has a single VR sensor input. I'm very sorry, I thought I mentioned this only had the cam sensor connected but I forgot to!
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

coolantbongrips wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 7:58 pm
The "CBR600" trigger appears to be based on a modified CBR600f4i crank trigger with two teeth removed
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/commit/761d431df8f82def099f9ab447d6c3c9b56079a4

please give it 20 minutes to build new firmware and update to latest snapshot from https://rusefi.com/build_server/
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

Updated the firmware and now I see spark while cranking!
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

I've spent the past few days working out kinks unrelated to the tune and trying to get my bike started with no luck. I'm very stupid and somehow forgot the VFR has a funky firing order which is usually one of the first things every VFR owner mentions when evangelizing how great the VFR is.
VFR firing order
VFR firing order
vfrfiringorder.PNG (9.33 KiB) Viewed 30455 times
VFR FSM cranking injector pulses
VFR FSM cranking injector pulses
vfr injector pulses.png (119.11 KiB) Viewed 30455 times
I can't work on this until later tonight, but would setting odd fire to "true" and the cylinder offsets to 180, 270, 360, 450 be the correct settings for this engine?
what I assume the cylinder offsets should look like
what I assume the cylinder offsets should look like
potential cylinder offsets untested.PNG (34.33 KiB) Viewed 30455 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

No.

We define offsets as _offsets_ from even firing, not as firing angles see for instance odd fire tune at https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2693

Also there is currently a defect https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/5894 which might be blocking you. I guess simplest work-around would be for me to disable that logic for now.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

coolantbongrips wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 7:46 pm
The cam sensor looks right.

The crank reluctor is missing two teeth. The right side of this wiring diagram has drawings of the crank and cam wheels and I've attached a service manual page showing what the crank and cam sensors look like

Image

Here's a new log with the gap override set as shown in the attachment
https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1342
Still not working with the cylinder offset set to -90, although I haven't updated my microrusEFI as there isn't a firmware snapshot yet. Should I still have the gap overrides in this post enabled?
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

coolantbongrips wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:13 am
as there isn't a firmware snapshot yet
Something is wrong here. Please provide much more details on what you expect and what you believe is actually happening.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

Ignore that, I was very confused. My problem is I'm having trouble setting trigger offset. I can fiddle with offset so my timing light has the marks lining up correctly when cranking, but small changes in offset of 5-10 degrees seem to correspond to large changes in actual ignition timing and vice versa where changing the offset by large values appears to make no difference. I uploaded two logs to rusEFI online, one where the ECU stimulator is set to 100RPM and a trigger offset of -180 results in a log that has ignition events at the correct timings, and one with actual cranking attempts where the ignition events and the trigger seem totally incorrect. The only things on the tune that changed between these logs are the trigger offsets. The trigger waveform in the logs looks pretty bad, could that be the source of my problems?
Logs: https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1344 Stimulator set to 100 RPM, -180 degree offset
https://www.rusefi.com/online/view.php?log=1345 Actual cranking attempt, 60 degree offset
Attachments
Actual cranking attempt with -150 degree offset
Actual cranking attempt with -150 degree offset
+150ignoffsetcrankattempt.PNG (72.66 KiB) Viewed 30371 times
Actual cranking attempt with 60 degree offset
Actual cranking attempt with 60 degree offset
badtrigbadignition-ofset60.PNG (75.34 KiB) Viewed 30371 times
Actual cranking attempt with -180 degree offset
Actual cranking attempt with -180 degree offset
-180ignoffsetcrankattempt.PNG (69.44 KiB) Viewed 30371 times
coil status and trigger with ECU stimulator set to 100RPM, this is approximately what the ignition vs trigger events should look like
coil status and trigger with ECU stimulator set to 100RPM, this is approximately what the ignition vs trigger events should look like
stimulator_-180degrees.PNG (83.75 KiB) Viewed 30371 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

Stimulator?! You've lost me there. I can think about only one thing at a time.

Please forget about coils.

Please remove spark plugs. Please note what data points my screen shot is focusing on. Please focus on trigger decoding.

Please note inconsistent and unexpected trigger sync ratio sequence - I fail to see a consistent pattern.

Please note inconsistent and unexpected trigger channel 1 shape.

I believe that something outside of the microcontroller is pretty not right. If you do not trust rusEFI logs please hook up a $9 logic analyzer to the crank test pad and confirm consistent repetitive signal.

Please forget about coils until you stop seeing trigger error counter going up.
image.png
image.png (131.13 KiB) Viewed 30366 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

TL;DR: One of the pulses from the camshaft sensor is half of the amplitude of the other two, feeding the MRE a fake cam sensor signal with all the pulses close to the same amplitude does not produce the problem I'm seeing. Maybe the amplitude difference is tripping up the TLE8888 somehow?

Context: This is a used microrusEFI harvested from an old PNP board and there's some silkscreen damage and the thru hole for VR+ pin 45 has a fly wire connected to the CRNK+ pad of R17 to fix this. This particular ECU has been through lots of abuse including shorting something through the STM32 and killing it, but both the STM32 and the TLE8888 have been replaced since then. The case is also lined with kapton at the moment to rule out the board shorting to it.

Behavior while cranking:
Today I redid the fly wire under a microscope and I don't believe that or the wiring going from the microrusEFI to the bike are the source of the problem. I logged the output of the CRANK pad of the TLE8888 while cranking and this is the result:
output of CRANK pad while cranking, this is what the MCU sees
output of CRANK pad while cranking, this is what the MCU sees
CRANK pin output when actually cranking.png (36.24 KiB) Viewed 30132 times
I also probed the output of the camshaft sensor at both the stock ECU headers of the bike and at the board side of the microrusEFI's connector and got these two waveforms. Notice one of the pulses is only around half the amplitude of the two closely spaced pulses. I think this may somehow be tripping up the TLE8888, and as far as I can tell this isn't due to any of the wiring or any problem with the microrusEFI.
Probes at the microrusEFI:
Camshaft sensor output measured between vr+ and vr- pins on the board side of the microrusEFI's connector
Camshaft sensor output measured between vr+ and vr- pins on the board side of the microrusEFI's connector
VR+-pins zoomed.png (23.89 KiB) Viewed 30132 times
Probes at the stock ECU headers before the adapter harness:
Camshaft sensor output measured at the connectors for the stock ECU
Camshaft sensor output measured at the connectors for the stock ECU
Cranking VR sensor measured directly at STOCK ECU headers zoomed.png (40.22 KiB) Viewed 30132 times


Behavior with a simulated camshaft sensor:
Earlier today after inspecting the board and redoing the fly wire I connected the MRE to a power supply and a function generator and fed it a poorly drawn approximation of the camshaft sensor output, which resulted in a good waveform on the CRANK pad unlike what I'm seeing when actually cranking the bike. When I logged this with tunerstudio the trigger error wasn't incrementing over a 10 second datalog, and the triggerchannel1 waveform looked good.

Badly drawn approximation of cam trigger:
Fake cam sensor output sent to the microrusEFI
Fake cam sensor output sent to the microrusEFI
simulated cam sensor output.PNG (30.48 KiB) Viewed 30132 times
CRANK pad measurement with above waveform as an input, Much nicer than when cranking on real hardware:
TLE8888 CRANK output when simulated cam sensor waveform is connected to VR+ pin 45, as far as I can tell this confirms everything on the microrusEFI side is functional.
TLE8888 CRANK output when simulated cam sensor waveform is connected to VR+ pin 45, as far as I can tell this confirms everything on the microrusEFI side is functional.
CRANK pin output with simulated VR sensor input.png (34.15 KiB) Viewed 30132 times
Trigger events in tunerstudio with fake cam signal:
Tunerstudio showing a much nicer looking trigger waveform
Tunerstudio showing a much nicer looking trigger waveform
tunerstudio log with fake camshaft sensor input.PNG (60.16 KiB) Viewed 30126 times
Misc info:
The crank and camshaft sensors have a common - pin, but disconnecting the crankshaft sensor leaves the camshaft sensor waveform completely unchanged and I doubt that's the problem.


All of this makes me suspect the issue isn't hardware damage that makes it impossible for the microrusEFI to reliably process the camshaft input and is somehow related to the pulses coming from the camshaft sensor having two different amplitudes. Tomorrow I'll read the TLE8888's datasheet and see if that has any relevant wisdom.
Last edited by coolantbongrips on Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

coolantbongrips wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:02 am
TLE8888's datasheet
Technically we have 'mode' which I believe no one has used ever?
image.png
image.png (21.76 KiB) Viewed 30126 times
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

AndreyB wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:07 am
coolantbongrips wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:02 am
TLE8888's datasheet
Technically we have 'mode' which I believe no one has used ever?

image.png
Section 10 of the datasheet explains more about this and I think the highlighted part may be the culprit
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-Infineon-TLE8888QK-DS-v01_02-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d4624f205c9a014f402ebd1c6095
datasheet1.PNG
datasheet1.PNG (158.67 KiB) Viewed 30115 times
Looks like manual mode disables any internal algorithms and lets you set all the parameters manually over SPI
datasheet2.PNG
datasheet2.PNG (52.66 KiB) Viewed 30115 times
Semi auto mode is described as "The algorithm of the semi auto mode is based on less number
of measurement information as the auto detection mode. This leads to a simpler implementation of the
detection algorithm," which is vague enough that I'll enable it tomorrow and see if it makes a difference.

Now I'm wondering if setting the peak level to the lower of the two amplitudes in manual mode would get around this
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

I tried cranking it with the mode set to semi auto with no difference.
CRANK pad signal when cranking with TLE set to semi auto
CRANK pad signal when cranking with TLE set to semi auto
CRANK pad TLE semiauto.png (21.35 KiB) Viewed 30084 times
The good news is I'm able to replicate the issue with the MRE off the bike and hooked up to a function generator and power supply!

Signal applied to VR+ pin:
New fake cam sensor signal
New fake cam sensor signal
Fake cam sensor signal 2.png (31.65 KiB) Viewed 30084 times
CRANK pad signal with the above signal applied to VR+ pin, TLE is in Auto mode but semiauto mode makes no difference
CRANK pad, TLE auto mode, fake cam sensor signal with pulse amplitude difference
CRANK pad, TLE auto mode, fake cam sensor signal with pulse amplitude difference
CRANK pad with fake cam sensor signal 2.png (41.36 KiB) Viewed 30084 times
It looks like the TLE's auto mode is getting thrown off by the lower voltage pulse, so manually setting the parameters could potentially fix this.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

I doubt that TLE8888 driver has manual fully supported and I doubt that we should keep investing in TLE8888. Please consider uaEFI which gives you both MAX9924 and discrete VR with bias control.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

AndreyB wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:16 pm
I doubt that TLE8888 driver has manual fully supported and I doubt that we should keep investing in TLE8888. Please consider uaEFI which gives you both MAX9924 and discrete VR with bias control.
Thankfully my PnP design is based on uaefi. My solution for now is going to be a VR sensor conditioner flywired to my breakout board and using hall effect mode on the TLE.
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

coolantbongrips wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:25 pm
AndreyB wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:16 pm
I doubt that TLE8888 driver has manual fully supported and I doubt that we should keep investing in TLE8888. Please consider uaEFI which gives you both MAX9924 and discrete VR with bias control.
Thankfully my PnP design is based on uaefi. My solution for now is going to be a VR sensor conditioner flywired to my breakout board and using hall effect mode on the TLE.
Adding a VR sensor conditioner fixed the problem, Video and logs will come once everything is charged back up and I have idle dialed in
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by coolantbongrips »

Image
The first batch of ECUs came! I'm still waiting for some parts to arrive and need to flash firmware onto these so no videos yet
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

NICE!

I see dual WBO, do not see SWD exposed - did you get some https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Tag-Connect-TC2030 to program WBOs?
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Re: 1999 Honda VFR800, PnP ECU & Turbo eventually™

Post by AndreyB »

PS: wanna post on the FB group and share your hellen experience while making this hellenVFR?
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