[rusEfi] 1995 Dodge Neon

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Vanquizor
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

I do not believe the no-start is related to the STM hookup as MS is popping the F1 polyfuse. The 5v feed to the sensors is not on this polyfuse, and this no-start began immediately following a test of the master kill switch so I'm inclined to think the wiring in or switching of the master kill did bad things to my MS unit.

As for the setup- the ms and accompanying harness is in its original configuration- that is to say the same configuration I have been driving it around with for a while. I simply stripped and soldered 18g lead on the signal wire for the crank sensor, and since my ms doesn't use the cam sensor I stole a 5v feed and ground for that sensor from the TPS, then soldered another lead on for the cam sensor signal. The 2 sensor signal leads were ran across the garage to my workbench (crank spliced in the original MS wire, cam dedicated to stm). I then connected a ground wire from the stm to the battery negative connection on the car. I was able to start and run the car a few times (maybe 6 or 7) without issue was I worked on other odds and ends that needed done on the car.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Technically we do not need the car to run to get the cam/crank signal shapes. And since everything would begin with the cam signal we need to figure it out one way or another :)

How comes one car is 5v and another one is 8v? Is the cam wire on the MS car connected to anything at all - is there a power source in that circuit? I wonder if we need a pull-up resistor on the cam wire of the MS car?

The 8v car could be plan B if we put a resister divider.
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Vanquizor
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

8v is factory, ms has 5v sensor feeds- it works and I'm too lazy to wire up another power circuit so it runs on 5v sensor feeds.

I'll dummy up a test engine next to my bench with a starter and the sensors powered off a bench 5v source- that should give us something that I can test with without sharing signals or tying up too much garage space. Pics once I get it set up.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Vanquizor wrote:8v is factory, ms has 5v sensor feeds- it works and I'm too lazy to wire up another power circuit so it runs on 5v sensor feeds.

I'll dummy up a test engine next to my bench with a starter and the sensors powered off a bench 5v source- that should give us something that I can test with without sharing signals or tying up too much garage space. Pics once I get it set up.
Lazy is good. Is it by any chance possible to dummy something LESS than an engine? In my mazda case I could simply play with the distributor assembly because the Hall sensor is inside the dizzy. But that only works if your sensor does not read directly from the camshaft or something.

I am still not getting the whole 8v to 5v transition, that's because I am not exactly sure how Hall sensor works. If that's an integrated circuit - IC, a chip somewhere - I do not see how you can change voltage so easily, If that's the pull up resistor on the Hall sensor output wire - this is simpler but still this needs a resistor and pull-up.

Plz PM kb1gtt (Jared) your phone number so that you guys can talk :)
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Vanquizor
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

As a minimum I would need a cam, some thing to position it and the sensor, a crank, something to position the crank and the sensor, a way to keep them in phase, and a way to drive them. That sounds like way more work than grabbing one of my spare lumps and welding up a frame to hold it and a bracket to hold the starter motor in place. I'll likely have the test rig done tonight if my daughter goes to bed at a reasonable time.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

russian wrote:Technically we do not need the car to run to get the cam/crank signal shapes. And since everything would begin with the cam signal we need to figure it out one way or another :)

What is the logic behind beginning with the cam signal? The crank signal provides much richer data (8 pulses per engine revolution vs 1). Infact if you want to run the car as batch fire with wasted spark you can do that with a crank signal alone like my MS does. The cam sensor alone does not give you enough information to determine what position the cylinders are at.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Yes, technically we can work with crank only, but it's better to work with a combination of cam and crank.

Cam goes first because it is the primary synchronization signal. On the other hand, crank is important because it adds precision - so it's not a selection between one or another, it would be a combination in which because of the role cam plays we need it before crank.

Again, at some point we might decide to forget about cam altogether and use only crank and batching mode - if we decide to do so.
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Vanquizor
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

Significant progress- the test rig was a great success- and I was able to get a nice clean signal while cranking it over on the starter, but strangely enough nothing registered in the java console turning it over by hand. Log file is attached.

Also I am attaching some pics of the test setup. Basically I used one of my spare motors along with the bellhousing from a transmission and fabbed a few brackets to stabilize it. For the electronics I started with a spare power supply battery I had kicking around which is pretty undersized for this application but gets the job done for now till we are ready to add fuel and ignition systems. Knowing that I wanted my test rig to be stand alone as the system would be in a car I then used a little bullet car charger to provide 5v from the battery to my breadboard (simmilar to http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Car-Charger-Adapter-2-Ports-USB-3-1Amp-Mini-Auto-Charger-For-iPhone-iPod-iPad-2-/331060726319?hash=item4d14c1ca2f ) stm32f4 wired to the breadboard with the crank side on PA5 and the cam side on PC6 and we were off to the races! After that it was a fresh harness to put 5v to both the sensors and a couple signal leads to tie the motor to the breadboard and the result is the log file you see here.

I'd say its been a pretty productive evening!
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rfi_report_2014-01-11 00_26.csv
Data from dev console.
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Vanquizor
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

Pics of the bench side of this setup.
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abecedarian
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by abecedarian »

russian wrote:Yes, technically we can work with crank only, but it's better to work with a combination of cam and crank.

Cam goes first because it is the primary synchronization signal. On the other hand, crank is important because it adds precision - so it's not a selection between one or another, it would be a combination in which because of the role cam plays we need it before crank.

Again, at some point we might decide to forget about cam altogether and use only crank and batching mode - if we decide to do so.
One thing cam position sensing helps is determining engine cycle.

A 36-1 (or whatever) tooth wheel on the crank can only tell you where the crankshaft is within a 360 degree cycle.
This basically leaves you stuck with batch-fire injection, maybe banked if you have multiple missing teeth, and wasted spark ignition.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by kb1gtt »

Very nice, very nice, probably won't be long before you're off to the races :) I would wager a guess that russian will know exactly what the issues is at low RPM. Based on gut feel I think the software is based on transitions, not the state. So when the PC software doesn't see a transition in a certain amount of time it simply doesn't get displayed. I would bet that's a fairly easy update for russian to do. It would be really handy to also see it's state when there haven't been transitions for a while. So what's the next step? Perhaps getting it setup such that it can be started with out rolling around. Do you have injector or ignition circuits that can be used? How is the ignition done on the Neon? For example, are you driving the coil directly, or can you drive some kind of ignitor? Do you have some kind of chip for driving injectors?
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Great stuff! Also you have pushed me to install image auto-resizing plugin on the forum :)

The dev console screenshot is so clean I want to say it is fake! Is it? No? Fine. Just kidding :)

Great progress indeed. Let me crunch your log file and use these values for signal simulation and for the angle table for the trigger decoder.

As for the next step, did you say you've ordered the boards from oshpark? Did you ship them yet? I guess first tiny thing would be to migrate from your breadboard to the real analog board.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

I have added support for 3rd and 4th ignition coil & checked in a fresh version of rusefi.neon.hex

I have defined some random ignition & injection strategy just as an example in dodge_neon.c

For now this is based on just the cam shaft signal alone. Here is how the current configuration looks with fake cam signal (note how the console now shows the angle of signal start and end)

Image

Any idea what would be the real configuration in terms of angles & stuff? Anyway I would need to make all this configurable via TunerStudio this should get you time to make the whole electrical side :)
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by kb1gtt »

Oops, I didn't relay a bit of info. The pencil coils turned out to not include the ignitor, so we are best off using the OEM coils, which was 2 coils wasted spark. So he's probably going to be using 2 coils instead of 4. However I seem to recall he can add two more if we need / want.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

russian wrote:
Any idea what would be the real configuration in terms of angles & stuff?
I will put a degree wheel on the motor tomorrow and get the exact angles of the events.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Vanquizor wrote:I will put a degree wheel on the motor tomorrow and get the exact angles of the events.
I mean more like when do we want fuel injection and ignition. Cam angles we have already, crank angles we have close enough for now and will get more precise when we have it running so that we can average.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

here is the stock timing table from a factory ECU (kinda middle of the road one not a performance ECU)

For injection timing I'd suggest a good stating point is having the injection event end maybe 90 degrees before TDC opposite the ignition event- this will put the fuel in the runner just before the intake valves opens.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by kb1gtt »

We have had some discussions in private, much of it was misc chatter about various options and such. Per russians note, I figured I'd summarize some of the stuff that would be nice to have more public. A bunch of this stuff is just an effort to hack together enough of a system that russian can do some development and see if he can get this Neon engine running for low $. By all means, I do not expect it to be a finished product, just a very rough test bench.

Some stuff that's come up, it's getting reasonably hard to find good TO220 packages for newer MOSFET drivers, as most OEM's don't use them. OEM's have found that SMT technology with pick and place machines are far more reliable and much lower cost to assemble. So they haven't been using much TO220 stuff lately. They have also been migrating away from chips in DPAK's as they migrate to specialized chips like that TLE chip discussed else where in these forums. Those chips are not only SMT, but they include integrated MOSFET drivers and many diagnostics features and feedback. Also we are seeing Direct Injection growing in popularity. As it becomes more mainstream, we'll see yet another shift in what technology we can commonly purchase for DIY projects. So what ever we do today, we should expect it to be obsolete shortly.

That said, we are looking for a quick and dirty low cost bench setup. I suggested the below as a wiring schematic for this test setup. Most of the sensors are OEM stock sensors, with very minimal components used to interface to the STM discovery board.
TPS-INJ-IAT_schematic.jpg
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IGN.jpg
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Hall.jpg
Hall.jpg (431.58 KiB) Viewed 22290 times
I understand the 5V is being provided by a power adapter like you would use for a cell phone. The HALL is OEM and basically has unknown specifications. Also so far so good, the hall sensor is providing a nice clean signal.
Last edited by kb1gtt on Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Vanquizor wrote:here is the stock timing table from a factory ECU (kinda middle of the road one not a performance ECU)

For injection timing I'd suggest a good stating point is having the injection event end maybe 90 degrees before TDC opposite the ignition event- this will put the fuel in the runner just before the intake valves opens.
Someone would need to code this as a C array along the lines of https://svn.code.sf.net/p/rusefi/code/trunk/firmware/config/engines/ford_aspire.c

While this is also configurable via Tuner Studio, since we are still in the development phase with a lot of changes it would be easier to hard-code the default since there is a chance that the Tuner Studio project would need to be reset a couple of times along the way.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

so if I'm reading that right my pins are as follows:
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Vanquizor wrote:so if I'm reading that right my pins are as follows:
Exactly. This remind me that I have to finish my online spreadsheet of the same essence -
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by kb1gtt »

Yesterday I called Vanquizor, the result was ignition events controlled by either letting the GPIO pin float, or by GND'ing 15.42mA of current via the GPIO. Here are some notes.

Per the above IGN.jpg file, he measured that with the GPIO pin floating, there was 10.71 mA passing through the 330 ohm resistor, and 1.54V at pin 3 of the J701. Then when the GPIO was GND'ed, the voltage at pin3 dropped to 0V, and the current through the 330 ohm changed to 15.42 mA. As expected when we went from float, to GND there was a spark event though two plugs.

I saw in a forum somewhere a claim that the J701 was a darlington, so I modeled it as a darlington in QUCS, which created this graphic. This graphic shows it NOT conducting when the GPO pin is GND'ed.
Image

This graphic shows it conducting when the GPIO is shorting 15mA to GND.
Image

The good news, is that it appears there is an internal pull down resistor, so an external one is not required. Any how, bits of progress. He's aiming to get fuel going this evening.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Noel, Jared - some great progress here!

I have implemented opendrain and opendraing_invertet modes, I have set

Code: Select all

engineConfiguration->ignitionPinMode = OM_OPENDRAIN;
in the Neon default configuration.

You would just need to download the fresh binary.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

By the way, do you know anything about your coolant temperature sensor? it might be close to the 'default' values in http://rusefi.com/articles/measuring_temperature/Steinhart-Hart.shtml - measuring one resistance at one temperature should allow us to check that. if the value would be way off the common value, we would need three measurements.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

so not too much progress this week end as I was away with the family, but I did get a few hours in and cleaned up the test rig. Also upgraded it to an automotive style battery, hooked up and tested the 2nd spark driver, and added a regulated fuel system. Hopefully I'll get to injector testing this week with some help from friends of course!

For the coolant temp sensor- I actually have 2 sensors in 1 unit. The sensor that usually drives the pcm signal reads 13kohms, the one that normally drives the dash is 3.3k both taken in may garage- probably~20C

Published specs are:

PCM
*C, Ohms, *F
0, 32500, 32
20, 11830, 68
30, 7550, 86
62, 2380, 144
100, 700 , 212

factory uses a 2k2 pullup to 5V

Dash:
36F, 9080
84F, 2332
206F, 180

No idea what factory uses- it was tough to get this bit of data.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

I have added

Code: Select all

	setThermistorConfiguration(&engineConfiguration->cltThermistorConf, 0, 32500, 30, 7550, 100, 700);
	engineConfiguration->cltThermistorConf.bias_resistor = 2200;
Please let me know what resistor value you would end up with.

That's an impressive mess with some impressive progress embedded into it :) I am looking forward for the updates, it would be a huge thing for me to start an engine in another country :)

PS: did you say you have ordered the boards from oshpark?
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

boards are ordered and apparently on their way.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

Boards arrived, russian if you want to PM me your address i'll get one off to you.
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by AndreyB »

Noel, do you know how much fuel your engine would want to start cold?

See http://www.rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=375&p=4810#p4810
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Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor »

here is what I use in Megasquirt note it maxes at 25.5

Cranking Pulse Width Temps: CLT only
-40...mS 25.5
-20...mS 23
0......mS 20
20....mS 18
40....mS 13
60....mS 8
80....mS 6
100..mS 5
130..mS 4.5
160..mS 4


its a little rich- but it works for a race car. These are batch fire settings so it gets that pulse 4 times every ignition cycle. There is also a difference in injector size from that car to this one to account for- it uses 577cc injectors, our test engine has ~230cc injectors.
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