Introduction

toooyotha · Post by **toooyotha** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:29 am

Hi you all am new here and suscribed, want to investigate diy efi on a tuned 2tg engine from toyota which I am building, this for better miliage and ofcourse power. Am familiar with (smd) pcb building so should be get on the road with it.
Cheers JW from holland

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:02 pm

Welcome along and good to hear from you. Feel free to ask questions and such. Have you found the wiki yet? http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

toooyotha · Post by **toooyotha** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:52 pm

Thanks.

No, but will check all details to get a working setup. I only need efi, spark is kept original witwith electronic powered points ignition. So I need a (wideband) o2 sensor, tps, water temp sensor, air temp, timing signal maybe with crank speed, and car speed sensor. I have to drive only 2 paired or maybe 4 individual injectors. Will use a motorbike tb, or from a 4age engine, but ultimate goal is flat slide itb.

toooyotha · Post by **toooyotha** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:53 pm

Forgot the map sensor

Post by **AndreyB** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:55 pm

You probably also need MAP or MAF, probably MAP. In order to calculate fuel you need to know the amount of air coming, TPS is not the best tool for that.

DaWaN · Post by **DaWaN** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:03 pm

toooyotha wrote: No, but will check all details to get a working setup. I only need efi, spark is kept original witwith electronic powered points ignition. So I need a (wideband) o2 sensor, tps, water temp sensor, air temp, timing signal maybe with crank speed, and car speed sensor. I have to drive only 2 paired or maybe 4 individual injectors. Will use a motorbike tb, or from a 4age engine, but ultimate goal is flat slide itb.

Hi there!
Where are you situated in the Netherlands? I live very near Utrecht.
You have some more information about your car ? The 2TG is not the most modern engine, I am wondering which late 70's / early 80's RWD vintage car it is going in

As for your setup, I have a few questions/concerns:
-Why sticking to the old ignition system? Especially if you want to tune the engine for economy you really want good control of spark. Adding spark to the EFI setup is not difficult, you just need to have the right ignition coils and connect them to the ECU. All the position inputs you need for spark are already there if you want fuel injection..

-ITB setup might be difficult to tune. As far as I know ITB'ed 4A-GE engines have a MAP sensor and run speed density, but I am not sure that will work very well under high loads. Alpha-N will be the opposite; working not very well for low-loads but fine for high loads. If you want good fuel economy I would not use Alpha-N for low loads. Blending Alpha-N and speed density may be a solution here. Maybe there is also an option to use a MAF, but I am not sure how easy a MAF system is to tune. The MAF might also cause some restriction in the inlet. Maybe interesting to start a ITB tuning discussion ?

toooyotha · Post by **toooyotha** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:27 pm

Hi Dutchy

I live in Drenthe so not nearby.

Am building this block and have some plans for it, for my 1972 TA12 carina. Why is EFI on ITB more difficult compared to a (plenum) common intake?

First want a working EFI, and add edis lateron.

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:44 pm

The issue is imbalance, if you take a MAP or MAF reading from ITB 1, you can get significant variations in air flow from the next cyl. This is especially true for idle, where small variations in your closed butter fly cause fairly large variations in air flow. A common plenum balances that out as your only have one butter fly. At higher loads, the problem is that one cyl can get out of whack and become a bit of a weak link. AKA running to lean or too rich causes a bunch of stress on your engine. These can often be compensated for with exhaust gas temperature sensors. With ITB, you tend to get air flow around the ITB's which causes a difference in ambient pressure for each cyl, which creates imbalance.

It's common for people to try to combine the MAP signals with a pile of small tubing and check valves. It's also possible to combine them electrically, see https://github.com/jharvey/MultiMAP for a reference.

toooyotha · Post by **toooyotha** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:03 pm

Aha seems logic with ITB. Then is a denso mechanical ITB setup an excellent job in racing era of the begin 7 ties !!!

This ITB issue i havent thought about so have to be investigated too. I now run on dual solex sidedraft carbs, and dont want to go to a plenum design.

DaWaN · Post by **DaWaN** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:28 pm

toooyotha wrote:Hi Dutchy

I live in Drenthe so not nearby.

Am building this block and have some plans for it, for my 1972 TA12 carina. Why is EFI on ITB more difficult compared to a (plenum) common intake?

First want a working EFI, and add edis lateron.

I think you should include ignition at the same time, doing it later on only creates a lot of extra work. Modifying wiring loom, re-tuning, etc. Adding spark is really just a matter of connecting ignition coils to the ECU.
The only advantage I could think of is a very slightly cheaper build, but the cost of ignition components is really low though. For example: I acquired a set of four Toyota Coil on plugs recently for just 25 euros.

You should not use "EDIS" though. EDIS is a spark system from Ford, designed to work in conjunction with their EEC-IV ECUs. Basically it is a retro-fit system which appears to the ECU as a distributor. Only interesting when your engine is already equipped with the system or the ECU is not designed to fire individual spark plugs. Both do not apply here. Reading about Ford EDIS is probably going to confuse and lets you think distributor-less setups are difficult, but there is a reason it was only use briefly because it is an unnecessary complex retro-fit system

The world has moved on and there are much better distributor-less components available now.

Did you already have a look at which components you are going to use? I think the trigger wheel is the most interesting part, I think there are no off-the-shelf solutions available for the 2TG?
I think everybody is well-willing here to think about component choices!

toooyotha wrote:Aha seems logic with ITB. Then is a denso mechanical ITB setup an excellent job in racing era of the begin 7 ties !!!

This ITB issue i havent thought about so have to be investigated too. I now run on dual solex sidedraft carbs, and dont want to go to a plenum design.

There is no requirement of using a plenum design and ITB setups can be tuned to perform just as good (if not better!), but it needs some sophisticated algorithm in order to accurately determine engine load and fuel and spark requirements. As you are targeting good fuel economy in conjunction with ITB's this will require some pioneering work for rusEFI to get it right. But we know from other systems and OEM applications like the 4A-GE (silvertop/blacktop) that it can be accomplished.
And we all love the induction noise from ITB'ed engines, don't we?

toooyotha · Post by **toooyotha** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:57 pm

Exact you get it right, efi and itb can be de one, I did some reading around it is possibke, because age has it too with succes.
It uses a map sensor and spark is separate, at least the older 4age are.
I plan to use common toyota stuff; map, sensors (ntc's) tps, all age or maybe starlet 2e gear. Crank wheel custom on pulley, optic or magnetic pickup (hall sensor) have a lathe here so no problem.

Matter of fact build a carbed block earlier before to efi, stock ecu but had to figure out wiring. It started straight away, only had some fuel pump issues. Will do that now proper with a dual pump, anda high press can with pump near engine.

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