1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by **AndreyB** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:41 pm

I would start by finding a way to grab the signal off that pickup coil.

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:07 pm

Looks like an HEI is that what I'm seeing? I would say either grab the crank signal and do it via rusEFI with your own coils. Do they give you access to the VR wires? One item that's good and bad with HEI is that it hide problems which is good because hidden problems allows limp home mode. However it also often means you crank up the power then discover your problem, and costly problems happen. Generally I would suggest staying away from HEI, there are reasons whey the OEM's don't use them any more.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:34 am

Yes, it's an HEI 8pin. So, the suggestion we have is to go with a crank sensor vs the cam sensor (distributor) right? Now, I need to install a crank sensor then. Any good after market "easy" installs out there for a 4cyl?

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:42 am

Not necessary. The existing cam sensor is a great starting point, as long as you can wire directly to it?

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:59 am

I can figure something out to get in there. The pickup coil wires are White and Green (Red plug). My thoughts are - remove the ignition module, and run wires directly from the pickup coil. I would assume green goes to sensor ground and white would go to Cam signal in?
So, here's what I have:

: IMG_20160408_205216.jpg (1.77 MiB) Viewed 16115 times

: IMG_20160408_205202.jpg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 16115 times

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:22 am

Sounds about right (please be aware that you are doing all this on your own risk blah blah blah you see the real thing while we just see some pictures)

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:57 am

Well, that was no success (RPM staid at 0)...

White => cam signal in
Green => cam neg & tried ground

Do I dare put green on +5v?

Its your basic "coil" of copper wire. Has approximately 750Ohm resistance. Thoughts?

(It is a hall effect sensor)

**********************************
Let me correct myself...

** The CAM LED flashes when the engine turns over, however no RPM's are registered by the ECM or TunerStudio.

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:12 am

Ah distributor on CAM. Sorry was thinking of V8's with it driven off the crank.

Ah, good progress. If you see blinking light on rusEFI, then you have good progress and it is probably wired correctly. It sounds like you have a software configuration issue. If it doesn't know the wheel to decode, it doesn't know how many RPM's to display. Do you have the dev console installed? That will let you see the pulses.

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:50 pm

Good, thats progress!

Default configuration has 60-2 trigger and yours has way less number of teeth. Change trigger shape to say mazda sohc 4 and that would probably show you some wrong rpm.

Once you have this, move from tuner studio to dev console. Dev console should show you the shape of your trigger wheel. Once you have that we will remove spark plugs... actually let me write a wiki article on this.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:01 pm

Now, I've been looking everywhere in the software on where to change the trigger settings. It's probably right in front of me and I'm just blind today, but could someone "spell it out" for me please, ie; click here, click there, drop down here and BOOM! you got it...

The dev console...where exactly would I pick that up? I program phones, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same here.

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:26 pm

More content added to http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:Trigger - one of the questions is answered @ http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:Trigger#Supported_trigger_types

Another question is answered @ http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:Console

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:28 pm

Also http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:User/en fixed to rename "dev console" (older term) to "rusEfi console"

http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:User/en#rusEfi_Console

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:30 pm

Haha, yes - I was just reading those. I was going to update my post above. Thank you.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:24 pm

Ok, so right now I'm at a loss...

I've tried multiple different trigger settings, but none produce any output. The CAM LED flashes when turning over - at, what appears, the correct time.

It's a 4 tooth trigger (see previous pictures). I'm connected directly to the red plug (white and green wires). It is the basic pickup coil without the ignition module... several coils of wire around a center spindle. I've tried the wires in both directions, tried grounding one wire, tried putting one on 5v+ and still no results.

Ideas?

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:33 pm

Do you have an oscilloscope or logic analyzer? BTW if we assume it's a VR it would not need +5v anywhere, it's supposed to produce it's own voltage. BTW does it look like VR to anyone since I have no clue?

Give me a second to add more content to the wiki, In the meantime, please follow the http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:Trigger#Troubleshooting_with_rusEfi_console steps and post your triggerinfo output.

Post by **AndreyB** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:56 pm

Fresh content on the wiki - http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:Trigger#Unknown_trigger_type

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:24 pm

I have attached some specific pictures of the coil. This is my old one that's been replaced.

Also when attempting to follow the wiki, I've got the engine sniffer tab active, when cranking it goes for about 30sec then re-initializes the com port. It doesn't show any readings before re-initialization.

: IMG_20160410_110813.jpg (5.65 MiB) Viewed 16060 times

: IMG_20160410_110809.jpg (5.53 MiB) Viewed 16060 times

: IMG_20160410_110846.jpg (5.5 MiB) Viewed 16060 times

: IMG_20160410_110832.jpg (5.58 MiB) Viewed 16060 times

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:52 pm

Another thing I noticed, when using the engine sniffer it will have a popup that shows which trigger, but the physical pin is blank.

****Begin Popup****
Channel Trigger #1
Physical Pin:
****End Popup****

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:57 pm

did you have a chance to try triggerinfo and see if the counters are going up? Plz attach your largest log file from the out folder.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:12 pm

Yes, I did try the trigerinfo, but the counters did not change. Here are the logs from today.

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 11_28.csv: (1.15 MiB) Downloaded 633 times

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 11_39.csv: (660.4 KiB) Downloaded 625 times

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 11_45.csv: (577.62 KiB) Downloaded 607 times

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 11_51.csv: (1.01 MiB) Downloaded 622 times

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:25 pm

I do see triggerinfo output in one of the log files but the counters are staying at zero

Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: Template CUSTOM (0) trigger TT_MAZDA_SOHC_4 (7) useRiseEdge=Yes onlyFront=No gapBothDirections=No useOnlyFirstChannel=No
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: expected cycle events 8/0/0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger type=7/need2ndChannel=No
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: expected duty #0=0.62/#1=0.00
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: synchronizationNeeded=No/isError=No/total errors=0 ord_err=0/total revolutions=0/self=No
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: primary trigger input: PC6
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: primary trigger simulator: PD1 OM_DEFAULT freq=1200
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger error extra LED: NONE OM_DEFAULT
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: primary logic input: NONE
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: secondary logic input: NONE
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: zeroTestTime=14 maxHowFarOff=0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: advanceLookupTime=1285 now=307671515 fuelCalcTime=4121
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: ignitionMathTime=0 ignitionSchTime=0 injectonSchTime=420
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: mapTime=0/hipTime=0/rpmTime=0/mainTriggerCallbackTime=0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: maxLockTime=0 / maxTriggerReentraint=0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: maxEventQueueTime=0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: hipLastExecutionCount=0
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: hwSetTimerTime 121
Sun Apr 10 11:34:27 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: totalTriggerHandlerMaxTime=0

I was actually wrong when I said that 60/2 is the default trigger, look like the default trigger is "1+1" and it's better for us now since it uses both channels. Can you please set trigger back to "1+1", burn config and reset ECU and try again?

You said one of the LEDs is blinking. Which one is that - the left one or the right one? I want to confirm if the software is configured to use the right wire since there are two wires/two channels.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:26 pm

So, looking at the LEDs, the one labeled "CRANK 2ND" stays solid. The one labeled "CAM 1ST" flashes when turning over (right one with ECM=>car plugs at top). Here is the last log file "after" the burn 1+1 and reset with approximately 20sec crank time...

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 15_21.csv: (269.64 KiB) Downloaded 549 times

: Cranking_LEDs.jpg (2.91 MiB) Viewed 16050 times

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:15 pm

grep count "MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 15_21.csv" | grep post > a.txt

Something does not go right and this does not make sense. It was my understanding that any LED blink would be registered by software. Staying constantly ON is a bit odd.

Did you hit triggerinfo after the cranking, just to confirm?

Sun Apr 10 15:21:50 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:21:50 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:21:53 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:21:53 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:22:03 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:22:03 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:22:09 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:22:09 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:22:43 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 15:22:43 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:36 pm

Nice box.

I see 2 wires brown and red, leaving through a strain relief, and two white wires. Which wire is which? If I assume the wires are 12V, GND, VR+ and VR-. I think there is a wiring issue. Which wires are connected to the VR pickup? The VR should be direct connected to the MAX chip, the VR sensor has no connection to 12V or GND.

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:40 pm

as long as the output is blinking does that mean stm32 should register the blinks?

Ps: pretty cool that we have an led there

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:13 am

Here's a clarification of what goes where...

The "RED" wire for CAM Signal in goes to the WHITE wire on the pickup coil (yellow wire in the coil picture - it goes to the P on the electronic ignition which has been removed) and the "BROWN" wire for CAM NEG goes to the GREEN wire on the pickup coil (which is the N on the electronic ignition which has been removed). These wires go directly to the coil, no power provided at this time - unless the ECM is providing power from either CAM SIG IN or CAM NEG.

Everything else is labeled in the picture/box so it will be easier to identify.

: PINOUT-TO-BREAKOUT_BOX.jpg (3.58 MiB) Viewed 16016 times

You will see a "stragling blue" wire going to the BLOCK 1, it is the fuel pump relay - no sense in constantly running the pump right now as we know that works well...haha.

** Also, on another note - once the mock-up is done all the wires will be properly terminated with U connectors and soldered.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:15 am

russian wrote: Did you hit triggerinfo after the cranking, just to confirm?

No, I failed to do that. I can do that here in a second and post another log file.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:25 am

Ok, so did this three times in one session:

reset_trigger
cranked engine for approximately 20sec
triggerinfo

Here's the log file:

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 19_19.csv: (488.15 KiB) Downloaded 629 times

Post by **AndreyB** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:43 am

Jared, does this coil look VR-ish to you?

Sun Apr 10 19:20:24 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:20:24 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:20:57 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:20:57 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:21:28 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:21:28 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:22:05 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:22:05 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:22:16 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#1 event counters up=0/down=0
Sun Apr 10 19:22:16 MDT 2016<EOT>: postMessage EngineState: trigger#2 event counters up=0/down=0

Nope, still nothing in the firmware.

1) let's turn everything off. let's take a digital multimeter and confirm continuity between the blue square and pin PC6 on the green board. That's botton-right corner on the green board (bottom-left corner on your picture)

2) let's confirm that on the back of your board it's set like this http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware:Frankenso:VR_input and not like this http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware:Frankenso:Hall_input

3) while removed from the car let's run the test described @ http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware:Frankenso:VR_input
you would probably be using "still need to find the use for it" mini usb to power the board while not connected to the car.

Spine · Post by **Spine** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:07 am

Where is the "blue box"?

russian wrote:confirm continuity between the blue square and pin PC6 on the green board.

So, PC6 on the Green board has continuity to "CAM 1st" on the red board. See picture below.

: continuity_001.jpg (3.22 MiB) Viewed 15989 times

Here's what the backside looks like:

: IMG_20160410_232652.jpg (2.54 MiB) Viewed 15989 times

I attempted the test based on the link provided for VR input. I did not see the counters change. Log file attached below:

MAIN_rfi_report_2016-04-10 23_55.csv: (920.3 KiB) Downloaded 581 times

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[rusEfi] 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

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