[rusEfi] 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap #32

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:51 pm

The idea is to mount one of these boards on the prototyping area at a 90 degrees angle, or a 45 degress angle is space is limited.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:09 pm

Problem with that is I have the lcd kit, so I have no vertical space above the proto area. I think I could put a mosfet bent 90 degrees and solder it to the board as a heatsink, but that's probably the limit of my space. Maybe if I could do the same with one of those boards, but I only need a few amps at most.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:41 am

I don't know why I can't seem to find this circuit as a pre-assembled module, but this is a very common circuit for this kind of solenoid.
dadmS.png
dadmS.png (11.03 KiB) Viewed 3379 times
Found here
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/qu ... ng-a-motor

Any how, that's very likely the circuit you want. Perhaps I should make that into a module.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:50 pm

Thanks for that diagram, that's what I was thinking but I wanted to make sure I'm not crazy.

Other progress, I fixed the fuel pump not turning on (bad solder, reflow), and realized I'm a fool with the no3 injector not working (wrong output in tunerstudio). While I was at it, I switched the cam input to the1 tooth wheel and now I got problems. I remember seeing the vr conditioner board another user designed, Are there any other solutions to this issue? I tried re-adding the resistors to that line but it didn't really clean it up. Oscilloscope traces of this wheel are above.

I also lost some progress because I burned out my ignition module trying to figure out the timing last night. I think my dwell was too high or the sparks were happening too often. Of course my spare module also turned out to be bad, so I'm out until at least next week. Maybe I shouldn't be doing this with my daily...

Oh, and it seems I should be running the ignition at 5v out inverted, right? Yeah I wasn't doing that... I need to stop being so overzealous when I get excited about this thing...

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:02 am

I expect cranking to be about 300 RPM which would have a single pulse once every 200mS. I do not see a picture of CAM while cranking. What does that one look like?

I see your cranking pulses are happening once every 30mS with about a 4V peak to peak. So the Crank is good, but I don't know about the CAM.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:10 am

I just meant the oscilloscope trace in the other post. I don't have the sniffer capture on my phone to post just yet. Here's a reference I found for using a megasquirt with the 24+1 setup. They say to use falling edge on the cam trigger, perhaps because of its strange shape? https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tec ... nda-civic/

Image shows the wheel in question (not the ones with the arrows). Rotation is clockwise, so the sharp edge should pass the sensor first, which is what I see on the scope.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Ok, here's a capture of what I'm dealing with now. Crank trigger is working great, but I'm having a terrible time with the "1 tooth" cam position wheel. 16 tooth is center (8 per crank rotation) and the cam sync is up top. Cam trigger is currently configured with 0R to ground and a 4.7k resistor in R112. I didn't really notice any change in signal with/without these connections. BTW, engine cranks at just shy of 500RPM, with plugs in.
2017-02-11_12_52_48rpm_0_maf_NaN.png
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:32 pm

This looks like the same issue with pulses that are longer than about 85ms. The max 9926 chip goes to maximum gain and starts to trigger on noise. I'm currently looking into this with a Subaru wheel but I am waiting for a co-worker to turn me a shaft. For now try a 2.2 k ohm across the VR at the ECU. Basically solder it to the expose harness pins issue the ECU.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:39 pm

That's what I came up with too. I gave up on the single tooth and sequential injection until I can get an additional vr conditioner in the proto area so instead I've gone back to the 4 tooth wheel and am trying to start on that alone. If the wheel triggers at tdc on every cylinder, and the distributor advance is set to 18° static, I should set the trigger offset angle to 18, yes?

The sniffer still gives me an error with the 4 tooth wheel saying it counted 2/0/0 when it expects 4/0/0. What would cause that?

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 am

Capture from my new obsession, getting this thing running with a 4 tooth wheel and simultaneous injection. It sounded like it wanted to start, but as I went on cranking it became less and less willing. Do you think the preset of 5ms cranking injector duration is too rich? I'm going to crawl the megasquirt docs to see if I can figure out my base settings, but if someone else who has experience with this could chime in I would appreciate it. Right now I need to figure out the trigger angles, base timing and cranking fuel, then it should be ready to run. I think I can figure the angles out with a timing light and some patience, so maybe running engine next week?
2017-02-11_17_16_57rpm_0_maf_NaN.png
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by stefanst » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:42 am

The old rule applies: If your engine is mechanically sound, you got spark at the proper time and fuel in the right amount, it will start.

5ms seems actually a bit short. If you're injecting too much, you should be able to alleviate by adding throttle for more air.
Have you verified spark timing? Could be you're 360 degrees off...

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:37 am

Wouldn't 360 degrees make no difference at all, or was that just hyperbole? In this case, with a distributor and simultaneous injection, I understand I should only have to worry about timing events within a 90 degree window, since the exact same cycle repeats with every cylinder. I don't have any more time to work on verifying timing this weekend, but I'm going to get out a pen and some paper and try and piece all this together and hopefully have a solid plan that I can check with a timing light sometime next week. I'm hesitant to push this project along too fast now after my ignition failure and another scare with the ignition today. I have a spare ignition module en route for next week and my cylinder head should be done on my datsun soon, so once I have a backup vehicle and I haven't got it started by then I'll be able to fully commit and finish this.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:41 am

Is your engine warm? Do you still have OEM ecu to warm it up?

A warm engine would start much easier, for your first start a warm engine is recommended.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:46 am

Engine was lukewarm. I think the timing is the biggest hurdle at this moment. Triggers look good to my untrained eye, I just don't think they're lined up how they need to be.

If I know my trigger events are happening at 16 degrees BTDC, I set the trigger angle to 16 in tunerstudio? Then is advance calculated as a total advance (including the 16) or is it additional?

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:45 am

A bit more progress, kind of. Did some more tinkering with the trigger/ignition timing and I feel like it's triggering properly, and I get decent sniffer captures, but the timing light and spark plugs don't give me what I should be getting. I seem to be getting a spark about half as often as I should be, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I finally understand how the factory igniter works. Charging and dwell are handled automatically by the igniter as long as the input is left floating, and then spark is triggered when the input pin is pulled low. As a consequence to this, I rewired the ignition to one of the low-side outputs and set ignition mode to default-inverted, which I understand to set the MC pin high when it wants spark, and keep it low for charging (which will be inverted by the drivers themselves, pulling the igniter low for spark, float for charge).

Spark seems to work on command with the IO test, but cranking I get spark from rusefi about half as often as with the factory ecu. I also get a console message about Trigger reading 2/0/0 while expecting 4/0/0, but I always took that to be noise on powerup. Could that be a possible source of my problems? IIRC, those messages went away while I was tinkering with resistors on the inputs (I think I had a 2.2k on R112).

WBO is now hooked up and patched into rusefi. As I suspected, the motor seems pretty rich while cranking, but that could be because it's not starting. I had a brief moment of the engine starting, but it died a second or so later. I also figured out that the MIL needs a high side output, so I guess I'll use the one I was using for ignition for that instead.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:28 am

ZHoob2004 wrote:I also get a console message about Trigger reading 2/0/0 while expecting 4/0/0, but I always took that to be noise on powerup. Could that be a possible source of my problems?
I think trigger definition like at http://rusefi.com/forum/posting.php?mod ... 13#pr23653 just would not currently work the way you want it to work. Do you have a nice diagram of your trigger signal? Let me just implement a custom trigger for you - I really suspect you have a problem here.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:54 am

Triggers currently available to me are as follows:
ALL TRIGGERS ARE IN THE DISTRIBUTOR, AND THUS ROTATE AT 1/2 RPM

16 tooth wheel, evenly spaced, no missing teeth, currently wired to PA5 trigger input

4 tooth wheel, evenly spaced, no missing teeth, should trigger when each cylinder is at TDC (more or less, depending on dizzy rotation) currently wired to PC6 trigger input

1 "tooth" wheel, snail shaped, in foreground of a picture I posted earlier. http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1115 had a decent discussion on decoding it, and I don't think I'll be able to deal with it until I build a clone of his decoder board. That's PA5 in the post you linked. Yeah, it's supposed to be 1 tooth...

Right now, in an attempt to just get things running, I've been trying what is suggested here https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tec ... our-honda/ and using only the 4 tooth wheel for triggering. http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 722#p23660 is a picture of what that trigger looked like cranking. I feel like the part at the beginning is what's causing the trigger error, because it seems to be clearly giving me 2 events per engine rotation.

If my igniter is handling dwell on its own, is there a setting I should use in tunerstudio for dwell, like 0 or something close to it?

More reference material about distributor. All documentation I can find is on OBD1/OBD2 distributors, not OBD0 like mine (honda guys think OBD1 is the best), but the only difference I can confirm is the number of teeth on the 1 wheel and the connectors themselves. The rest seems to be identical. http://www.team-integra.net/forum/17-au ... butor.html

If a custom trigger is in order, a 16+4 might give me smoother running, but I should be able to use the 4 by itself.
Last edited by ZHoob2004 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:18 am

So an existing one is called "ACCORD DIP" I will now rename it to "Honda 1+4"

http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... onda_1.2B4

Image

And will add 1+16 now.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:32 am

But just to confirm I'm not wasting my time with this, it should run with a custom wheel with 2 teeth per crank revolution, right? I know I can't run sequential fuel because I can't identify which cylinder is which.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:44 am

ZHoob2004 wrote:But just to confirm I'm not wasting my time with this, it should run with a custom wheel with 2 teeth per crank revolution, right? I know I can't run sequential fuel because I can't identify which cylinder is which.
I am a bit lost.

All your three sensors are inside your distributor? So they are all on the cam shaft?

I do not understand why honda called one of them crank. With the single tooth on the cam sensor you should totally have sequential. The only situation when you cannot do sequential is if you have nothing on the cam shaft, which is not your situation.

I am sorry you've lost time fighting this mess. I am cleaning up naming a little bit right now and will add you the 1+16 within an hour. Existing 1+4 decoder I believe is your best hope at the moment.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:56 am

Yeah, all 3 are in a line on the cam.
"Crank" or "CKP" really just refers to the wheel the main timing is done off of. 16 teeth, or 8 per crank rotation. (upped to 24 teeth in 92+ cars)
"TDC" is the 4 tooth wheel with one tooth at TDC for each cylinder. I think honda uses it for timing while cranking and just fires the coil whenever it sees a tooth. It may also be used to verify the other wheels are reading accurately.
"CYP" is the 1 tooth that is proving a decoding nightmare. It's used to tell which end is up for sequential fuel.

And I agree, with the single tooth on the cam I should have sequential, but I can't get a clean pulse out of that with the MAX9926 and its 85ms watchdog. Until I can do something like what @ did on his civic and make a vr board that can handle the single tooth, I'm trying to use just the 4 tooth wheel in simultaneous mode, Because it provides consistent trigger points and should be all I need for basic running.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:06 am

ZHoob2004 wrote:I'm trying to use just the 4 tooth wheel in simultaneous mode, Because it provides consistent trigger points and should be all I need for basic running.
Oh that's what you mean two events per crank revolution?

But there is no synchronization on based on this wheel without anything skipped? But on the other hand you have mechanical spark distribution so technically you do not need synchronization so you run simultaneous injection. Now I finally understand maybe hopefully.

This case I do not understand why it does not work. If you turn second channel off (the VVT channel) just to make things simpler it should work with 0/4 custom wheel like on that screenshot above.

PS: and how was I running my Accord on the same MAX9926 chip? What's different?
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:19 am

I really wish I knew what's different. All other channels are off, to make things simpler like you said. Do you have any pictures of the board from your accord? I know it was a while back but maybe I can spot something.

http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=621#p10032
here you have the trigger traces that you took, and they line up with what I thought about cranking spark. I assume from top to bottom they're 24 tooth, 1 tooth, 4 tooth and we have ignition labeled, being pulled low for spark. And it looks like later in the thread you grounded the VR negative pins, which cleared up a bunch of noise, so I guess that explains why we do that. And based on the video in the same thread, you were running on 4+24 trigger setup

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:51 am

Pictures added to the Accord thread but that board was later used on the Neon. I think it was just used as is.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:02 am

Ok, looks like a pretty normal board. I guess I'll go ahead and put back the 0R to ground and the 5k on R111/R112 and make sure all the solder looks good. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else could cause my issues because you had 2 different engines running with this exact configuration.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:15 am

Could a 4 / 16 decoder be made, such that you do not have to deal with the 85mS issue? I think one of the VR inputs is very much a cam signal, so perhaps that is a difficult task.

Should I spin a VR board which allows you to set the VR gain manually?

I would not add the 0R, perhaps a 2.2k ohm across the harness connector leads. The R111 and R112 are intended for a hot VR, not so much for de-tuning the signal at the max chip. There is 20k ohm blocking the energy from getting to the MAX chip, if you want to decrease the noise, you need a lower impedance at the ECU. So I suggest a 2.2k ohm across the harness leads. There have been reports from Subaru owners that the 2.2k ohms works with the adaptive feature on the MAX chip.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:14 pm

kb1gtt wrote:Could a 4 / 16 decoder be made,
Absolutely. Once this starts on just "4" decoder I can make 4+!6 like http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... nda_4.2B24
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by ZHoob2004 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:59 am

Added the 2k2 resistors across the vr inputs. Input impedance is now between 2 and 3k (compared to 50k something before) and the stock ecu impedance is like 9k. Bench testing I don't see any noise, but there isn't really a lot of electrical noise to be had where I'm testing.

I now am getting an error in console about my MAP ADC pin being used by VBAT ADC, but they are both set to their own separate pins, so idk what's causing that. I may need to go to an older firmware because the most recent one doesn't seem to have helped with that.

Also MIL has been rewired to one of the high side outputs, because that's important. (is it bad to use check engine as a shift light?)

I haven't had a chance to test any of this in car, so we'll see how that goes. Maybe this will be the fix? I'm still waiting on a good option for a 3rd VR input that can handle the 1 tooth wheel, then I'll wire that up too for full sequential.

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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:37 am

The Frankenso VR's are set to mode A2 and per page 3 of the below PDF, the VMIN-THRESH for the 9926 is 15mV, but could be as low as 4mV. Per tWD the threshold will be set to this minimum in about 85mS, but could happen in as little as 45mS. So it does not take much noise to trigger a false reading. The 2.2k ohm is aiming to decrease your normal VR signal to be closer to a 150mV peak to peak signal, such that noise is below 4mV.

https://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/ ... AX9927.pdf

What is the current of the MIL? Can you use your 10A meter to check the current draw? I expect the hi/lo drivers can only drive about 0.125A before they hit a long term thermal limit. You can drive them at the higher current for shorter periods of time, but eventually if the average is above 0.125A, I expect they will over heat and enter thermal shutdown.
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Re: 1991 Honda CRX B16A Swap

Post by russian » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:22 pm

ZHoob2004 wrote:I now am getting an error in console about my MAP ADC pin being used by VBAT ADC, but they are both set to their own separate pins, so idk what's causing that. I may need to go to an older firmware because the most recent one doesn't seem to have helped with that.
please reboot ECU to apply changes? please publish your tune file?
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