88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

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88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:34 am

Project thread for my 88 Camry with the 3SFE. Goal at the moment is to run the stock engine.
4 cylinders batch injection, EMS controlled distributor, double VR sensor CAM (24 & 4 Tooth).

Plan is make it plug and play with the stock ECU which is a 42 pin, not the 64pin like the stock Frankenso.

Had a few packages waiting for me today! Easy part: It fits!
Image

Turns out the propane torch is a few hours away so I think I'll be cutting the stock connector off. Still need to find a toaster oven and hack that before any Frankenso building starts...
I expect progress to be slow for a while, so don't start making any popcorn yet!

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:52 am

If you are only doing an occasional reflow, a toaster over that is turned on, and pulling the plug works reasonably well. Either that or those hot air soldering stations are reasonably low cost these days. Here are two options for about $35.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220V-450W-450C- ... Swk1JWdRBJ

http://www.ebay.com/itm/858-110V-SMD-Re ... SwKtlWpuHd
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:41 am

Those rework stations look appealing, but I just bought a toaster oven for $15 :) pretty sure I have a decent idea of how the code will work. Need to finish up another project first though, otherwise I'm going to run out of room..

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:23 am

Bunch of questions for the parts side of things, hopefully not asking too much here! :?

On the Tindie DIY kit, do the #s in the bags relate to anything?
IE: #30 x1 4MHz osc, on the BOM #30 is an LED...

Related to ^
#30 4MHzz oscillator, is this X1? Or X161 or X2?
#25 x2 thru-hole diode. printed on them is "1n4747a" "st". Which reference number are these?
#26 Diode D1 tiny and #27 Diode D4 huge, these are D1001 and D1004?

2.2uF capacitor 445-7880-1-ND is out of stock with digikey, I'm going to sub a slightly taller (1.45 vs 1.25mm) cap unless someone predicts a problem. Other specs all appear to be the same.

BOM lists L1001, 2, and 3. But I only see spots for L1001 & 2. Is there a L1003?

Ref P1 & P2 are do-not-populate. But I did get a pair of 25x2 headers in the kit - I assume these are for a physical discovery board not a TQFP package?

I can't find D703 on the board but its in the BOM. Kit came with 12 instead of 13 of this part. I assume D703 is non existing?

Are the LEDs in the kit red? Need to know which other ones to order.

Last one: Bluetooth (U4) is optional?

Sorry to hit yall with a million questions. Just want to get my order together plus the parts I need for the reflow oven and pay shipping once. Thanks!

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:49 am

No worries about the questions. I can answer some of these, russian will need to answer the others.
theflyingdutchp wrote:2.2uF capacitor 445-7880-1-ND is out of stock with digikey, I'm going to sub a slightly taller (1.45 vs 1.25mm) cap unless someone predicts a problem. Other specs all appear to be the same.
Check your vertical height, many cases have a piece of materiel that could collide with this cap. That's why it's the short one. However if you do have a tall cap, I recall you can grind off a bit of the case to make it fit. We simply used the shorter cap as it avoids this kind of labor.
theflyingdutchp wrote:BOM lists L1001, 2, and 3. But I only see spots for L1001 & 2. Is there a L1003?
I believe you are looking at the draft copy of the R0.5 board, is your board marked R0.4? If so use files found here. https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/code/H ... _rev00.40/

The R0.5 board is not ready at this point in time.
theflyingdutchp wrote:Ref P1 & P2 are do-not-populate. But I did get a pair of 25x2 headers in the kit - I assume these are for a physical discovery board not a TQFP package?
The DNP is per china build. You can install them with out issue, I suggest for best fit to connect the discovery board to these connectors and use that as a guide when soldering these.
theflyingdutchp wrote:I can't find D703 on the board but its in the BOM. Kit came with 12 instead of 13 of this part. I assume D703 is non existing?
Oops, looks like silk screen issues. I'll need russian to verify, but I think it might have an issue with P10 and P6.
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (21.54 KiB) Viewed 4615 times
theflyingdutchp wrote:Last one: Bluetooth (U4) is optional?
Yes optional, as well as not tested yet. It should work, but I don't think anyone has tried it yet.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:23 am

packaging numbers are random, that's just the number within the kit item list
theflyingdutchp wrote: #30 4MHzz oscillator, is this X1? Or X161 or X2?
#25 x2 thru-hole diode. printed on them is "1n4747a" "st". Which reference number are these?
4MHzz is close to the HIP9011 since it's driving it. hip9011 is probably not the first thing you need

For power supply the picture on the wiki could help - http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... wer_Supply

Also see images at http://rusefi.com/images/Frankenso/ these could help while assembling.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:15 pm

Much appreciated! I was definitely looking at a different BOM. I'm now working with frankenso. Not sure where I found the other one.

Starting on working through the BOM and parts I have now. Will update (I predict new questions :D) when I'm done.

Thanks again!

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:55 pm

Ok I think I'm starting to understand a little more. The board doesn't need to be completely populated? So if I just need VR there is no point getting the hall sensor components or installing them? Same deal for the knock sensor? etc etc?

Is the wiki hardware page pretty close to the barebones build?

Last question: Is there any difference between building the discovery on board, or using a plug-in module?

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:18 am

VR vs Hall is a bad example since mostly the same components or op-amps shared with analog inputs, but yes - just assemble what you need.

No benefits to build stm32f4 on board but looks cooler, better looks for a lot of extra effort. Also discovery is easier to flash firmware.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:49 am

Gothca on the drop-in board. I think I'll do it that way then. Don't care about the cool factor, ease of flashing is always good :D

This is making much more sense. Working off of the frankenso_schematic makes things easy, thanks to whoever put that together!

Can I skip page 10 on the Frankenso_Schematic.pdf? I assume this would all be on the discovery board?
ADCs pg3 I'll have to size the 3 resistors on the input side depending on the curves of my sensors? Or can I calibrate in software?.. Edit, I should rtfm more :) I'll look into this and get back if I have questions
pg6 R401 & 402: Populate these to use Q401 as an ignition driver correct?
Power Supply Q1002: What part is this? I can't find it in the BOM or on the board. Or is it DNP?

Thanks

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:51 am

Q1002 is part of R0.5, sounds like you are still using the wrong rev, Check your drawing title block notes R0.4.

Yes you can skip page 10, that is the brain. However you can purchase the module for low $, which removes the need for that labor and complication. So I would suggest going the purchased module route.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:39 pm

theflyingdutchp wrote:pg6 R401 & 402: Populate these to use Q401 as an ignition driver correct?
yes and no.
No, this is not an ignition driver - this would NOT drive a coil directly. Yes, it's a high-size driver which is usually needed to drive an external ignition driver. We also have a little add-on board for a true ignition driver but I have not yet properly listed it at the tindie store. You can see the vertical add-on boards on my Neon ECU picture.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:27 pm

russian, so maybe a better name is an igniter driver? In any case, sounds like what I need thanks!
kb1gtt, thanks! Had to dig around in sourceforge but I think I found it. Code revision 8894? What is making me unsure is all the pages except the first and last are revision 0.2. First and last are 0.4. I'll do some more digging later today if I don't hear back.

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:39 pm

theflyingdutchp wrote:russian, so maybe a better name is an igniter driver?
Sounds like that, where is it called ignition driver?

Going through SVN history is one of the options but it's probably easier to focus at the 'rusefi_hardware_history' holder in trunk which has copies of major milestones, in this case https://svn.code.sf.net/p/rusefi/code/t ... _rev00.40/
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:41 pm

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:10 pm

Ok only question then. I wasn't able to dig up much information on the analog inputs.
I assume I'll need to determine for myself what size pullups, pulldowns, and current-limiting resistors I'll need?

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:38 pm

theflyingdutchp wrote:I assume I'll need to determine for myself what size pullups, pulldowns, and current-limiting resistors I'll need?
Not my field but I believe current-limiting is always 10K for all inputs, but yes you need to know your pull-ups for CLT and IAT, maybe MAF if that's the type you have. Can you measure or calculate OEM pull-ups?
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:42 pm

I could start following traces on the OE ecu but I don't think that will help as that design will use different hardware.
I'm looking at the mcp6004 datasheet now, and I've got a fsm with some resistance specs in it... Will update if I come up with anything

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:49 pm

theflyingdutchp wrote:I could start following traces on the OE ecu but I don't think that will help as that design will use different hardware
If you can still power the OEM ecu you can measure CLT sensor resistance and the resulting voltage, this should allow you to calculate OEM resistance I believe?
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:00 pm

So i have charts of most if not all of the resistance curves for IAT, CLT, AFM, and TPS sensors.

I suppose I could check for pullups/downs by disconnecting the sensor and then measuring voltage to ground and to +12v. But then I'd be measuring more than the resistor... Hmm

I know there was some work done on cracking the a similar Toyota ecu. I'll look into that again and see if I can find a circuit diagram.

Edit: first though, coffee. I'm thinking I might not need to do all that, but I need to think it through. Update later

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:51 pm

If you have factory specs, and a multimeter to verify the factory specs, that should be all you need from the sensors side of things. AKA, TPS is probably a POT with GND and +5V, if you measure a constant voltage across 2 pins, while TPS is cycled, that is what we need. Also with CLT, measure the resistance, and see that's it's about correct for room temp per FSM or what ever and if it is, then we can use the FSM range of ohms.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:23 pm

kb1gtt wrote:If you have factory specs, and a multimeter to verify the factory specs, that should be all you need from the sensors side of things. AKA, TPS is probably a POT with GND and +5V, if you measure a constant voltage across 2 pins, while TPS is cycled, that is what we need. Also with CLT, measure the resistance, and see that's it's about correct for room temp per FSM or what ever and if it is, then we can use the FSM range of ohms.
So the AFM sounds funky according to the FSM. Fully open is 20-400ohm, closed is 20-3000ohm. And then it says "Resistance will change in a wave pattern as the plate slowly opens." Not sure wtf is going on there.

TPS, IAT, and CLT are all POTs. Nothing fancy but I'm confused about the need for a pull up/down. Is it only to provide a steady reading in case the circuit gets disconnected?

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:06 pm

The CLT and IAT are probably resistors connected to GND. The bias resistor is create a resistor divider which will generate a voltage. This voltage is then read by the STM32 brain chip. To measure resistance you need to generate a current through the sensor, ohms law and the resistor ohms will determine the voltage reading.

The TPS is probably a POT with 3 leads. One lead will be a + voltage, another would be GND, and the 3rd would be the wiper. The wiper is probably a voltage signal that goes back to the ECU. For this you probably need to connect the + voltage side of the POT to 5V, then the wiper will probably range from 0V to 5V as you move the throttle.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:09 pm

kb1gtt wrote:.
Sorry wrong terminology :oops: - CLT and IAT are thermistors right? In any case - you're right on all 3. TPS is a 3 wire.

I'll hook the AFM up to the arduino next week and see what it does. FSM says signal will range 0-5V so should be easy :) Wiring diagram makes it look like a 3 wire POT, but the resistance values don't make sense to me.

And voltage divider! Oh man of course. In that case, I'll try to size my sensors to produce the same voltage ranges as would be produced by the Frankenso schematic. IE: if my math is right the TPS circuit would vary between 4.90 and 4.99V. (Although this seems like a tiny range to me, but I'm guessing the amp fixes this up? And then we can use a large resistor to get almost no current to ground?)

Sorry if I'm being a bit dull, I have a basic understanding of some of this stuff, but definitely not enough to understand it solo - amps especially.

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:31 pm

I understand that certain areas can be a bit of a foreign language. I wouldn't worry to much about TPS. The IAT and CLT are more important. Once you know the range I can suggest the pull up resistor size. Your TPS is likely going to be wired directly to the PCB, not pull up no special anything. What is the range of your thermistors? Also does room temperature match the FSM resistance?

Could your MAP be one of these frequency MAP's?
http://www.aa1car.com/library/map_sensors.htm
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:54 pm

IAT and TPS about 200 to 20000 ohms. CLT 200 to 10000.
The AFM is a flapper type air flow meter, an old school version of a MAF. Doesn't measure air pressure like a MAP but rather the mass of the air.
I'll have to get a new multimeter before I can check the sensor resistance, mine is absolutely garbage for anything other than open or short.

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:36 am

I eye balled a curve for 200 ohms to 2kohms, then I entered it into a spread sheet I had laying around. In the past I found that most termistors you can purchase have a max power dissipation of 2mW. So I try to stay below 2mW of power dissipated by the thermistor. Remember you are running a bias current through the termistor, which will generate heat. As well I look for large-ish voltage swings to get better resolution in the ECU. For this thermistor it looks like a typical 2.2k would be reasonably close enough, but if you get to choose, you would probably look for a 2.5kohm pull up. I have shared this spread sheet, see link below. Basically enter the green areas, and if you see red, you need to increase the resistance noted in cell A5. Also you should be able to download it, which will allow you to make modified version's for you specific sensors.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Last edited by kb1gtt on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by theflyingdutchp » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:08 pm

kb1gtt wrote:.
Hey much appreciated! I assume you stayed at/below 2V for wattage reasons?

IAT is 20 to .4kOhms
CLT is 20 to .1kOhms
TPS is 10 to .2kOhms

2.5kOhm resistor gives me a range from about 4 volts down to .17 for the CLT, about .69 for the IAT. Stays under 2mW.

Might go with a 3.3kOhm though as 2.5k is quite expensive in low quantities from Digikey:
3.86V to 0.49V (IAT) or 0.13V (CLT).

Still need to confirm with a real world reading and log the AFM.

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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:03 pm

Correct, wattage is low, that's a large part of how you determine what you are looking for. After that you try to look for as much change in the area you are normally operating at. Keep in mind you can use 2 resistors in series, you don't have to buy it in one resistor.
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Re: 88 Toyota Camry 2.0 (3SFE)

Post by russian » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:32 pm

theflyingdutchp wrote:Still need to confirm with a real world reading and log the AFM.
Noone likes vane door and real world reading is often hard to come by, that's how a lot of people choose to use known MAP sensors and speed density algo since the conversion is so easy.
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