[rusEfi] Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:04 am

Hi everybody.
Originally i bought a Smart roadster with a tiny 45kW petrol/turbo boosted engine. The engine was pretty worn out, so i started to make my own one. This time not much bigger but in point of quality a longer lasting one. So i used a smart CDI 800ccm engine bottom/lump and added after some tweaks the original petrol head. And yes, the pistons are gasoline ones (so no diesel cavities are there). It has a bigger throttle body and bigger turbo and injectors installed. (From a brabus model). I made a test board for rusefi project (and by the way the test board accepted a speeduino board too because i want to test possibilities of the two projects). I decided to use rusefi, so now i made a new PCB for RUSEFI only. BTW the car started and made a few runs, but we have snow now here and the puppy is pretty slippery with its 750kgs of mass and RWD. Currently i am soldering the new boards. Later i post photos here.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:08 am

This was the "test" old PCB.
Image

Here are photos of the new boards. Logic board is separated from high current power stage. The boards are not the best quality. They are home made but i added there PTH vias.

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Last edited by nighthunter on Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by russian » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:15 am

Welcome and looking forward a video at least inside the garage!

So I guess your engine is our first tiniest step into diesels :)

I want to play with gearbox control one day but this is getting postponed again and again :( my idea is to make FSIO flexible enougth to handle gearboxes.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:25 am

:-) no diesel. I can say it is "hybrid" in some way. It runs on petrol, only the bottom is transplanted from a diesel one. (Hope petrol lovers wont hate me for this step). As i sayed. At weekend, when i will be home ill shoot a video, running it on the older PCB. (But if i manage to populate the new PCBs it will run on the one ones).

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:27 am

Very nice very nice. Snow you say. That's odd, I also have snow.

Is your board layout something you can and are willing to share? If so I can offer a design review. More eyes can decrease the number of spins.

I'm sure you have found the wiki, but have you found the page which notes the design intent's of the hardware? If not here's a link. http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware also this page for PCB layout suggestions. http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... sign_rules

Very cool project, keep it up and feel free to ask questions.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:36 am

Hello and greetings kb1gtt. Yes, the boards will be open-sourced for everyone. These ones are just a bunch of homemade "pre-beta" ones. I will free up schematics and layout files, but at this time if therer are some quirks i want to avoid, that someone can damage something with these boards. I plan to make production ones, they will be 4 layer PCBs, but i cant make it at home. So there boards are only 2 layer and with smaller components and some other "designer perversions". I read the design rules so shame on me for the boards. :oops:

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:43 am

No worries, I'm a fan of get it done even if you step on the rules a bit. The rules and specifications are a guide, to help in design decisions. They may be good or may be bad, but at least I've written down my design intent's.

Keep me posted and very cool. Keep it up.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:51 am

russian wrote:Welcome and looking forward a video at least inside the garage!

So I guess your engine is our first tiniest step into diesels :)

I want to play with gearbox control one day but this is getting postponed again and again :( my idea is to make FSIO flexible enougth to handle gearboxes.
That would be pretty a good thing. But first the engine needs to run smooth :-). I think the gearbox is pretty simple in kind of control. It has a output speed VR sensor (input is shared from engine flywheel. Two DC motors with encoders (one operates clutch, other is kicking gears in) and a potentiometer to tell where the current gear is. Pretty simple to me. The software will be more painfull i think. But better news are i have 4 more gearboxes of this type to play with.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by russian » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:57 am

it's a sequential automatic manual right?

I wonder how much it would be to ship for me to loan one... how heavy is it?
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:03 pm

It is "motorized manual" so classic gearbox with dry clutch, just the selector is electric and the clutch is operated via the second dc motor. It is pretty heavy about 15-25kgs i think. And it is pretty small.
Here i found an "X-RAY" view of it.
http://s385.photobucket.com/user/tkaald ... x.jpg.html
http://s385.photobucket.com/user/tkaald ... m.jpg.html
edit: i calculated posting fees and the calc is giving me a $400 for shipping to US. That is odd. But on here and on ebay they are dirty cheap. I bought 2 for $20 each in Poland wich is hear nearby. I live few km from the borders.
Here is another one in UK very cheap too. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMART-CAR-450-F ... Swo4pYW8fo

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:15 pm

Roadsters and fortwos (model years from 98 to 2005 i think) share the same type of transmission. Just the ratios are other and the selector drum wich selects the corresponding gears is changed.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:56 pm

For the electric controls of the transmission, do you have a plan or schematic yet? Do you know the connectors? How do you plan to physically connect?
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:34 pm

Yes, i have wiring of the original transmission, it is controlled with the engine ECU. There are inside two bipolar H bridges for controlling the transmission and for each motor 2 encoder signals. I will post it when i have a little more time.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:58 pm

By the way, isnt there a rusefi buill for smaller 32F4 series? 48QFN maybe?? (I think it would be very usefull as an LPG injection controller)

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by russian » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:28 am

nighthunter wrote:By the way, isnt there a rusefi buill for smaller 32F4 series? 48QFN maybe?? (I think it would be very usefull as an LPG injection controller)
There is kind of a build for stm32f1 rusEfi without engine control (since without FPU), for engine control you need stm32f4 with FPU - not sure what is the smallest package. We do have http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=769 but I do not know if any chip with FPU would work on that board as is.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by russian » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:01 pm

russian wrote:Welcome and looking forward a video at least inside the garage!
Still looking forward...
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine

Post by nighthunter » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:27 pm

Sorry for the delay, i was a little bit busy, because of teeth operation. Here is the video, of starting it a couple of hours ago. New videos will follow. This was just a quick start. It needed a little more cranking as i not trimmed the fuel correctly at low temps and i think the LM1815 circuitry is a little bit of low sensitivity (Battery was weak). I must check it with the scope.

[video][/video]

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by russian » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:57 pm

Welcome to the club! I believe you are the first 3 cylinder engine?
Boost CVV valve controlled by original MEG
What would be needed to convert this to rusEfi?
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by nighthunter » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:19 pm

I think it is doable with rusefi programmable output logic. Its because the turbo is controlled via two valves. In between from vacuum to 0.5bar the first valve is closed or open only. It operates the two "error modes". One that goes only to ambient pressure and the other limits physically the pressure to 0.5bar because of the spring in the turbo control chamber. The second one is PWM operated to modulate the pressure from 0.5-max. I will attach some scope readings in next days. The bigger problem is to fake the original ECU to think the MAP pressure is still on its original pressures according to the MEG maps. I know there are some modified files for the original MEG wich has the "security feature" of monitoring maximum and minimum levels switched off, but noone want to send me a file for a 45 one. There are many free files but only for 60kw versions.
http://thumbs4.picclick.com/d/l400/pict ... er-bis.jpg
Here is a link how a simple little engine with cute little turbo has a big vacuum chamber with 5 connections for control. (Only an idiot can design such as complicated thing). Btw the control pretty loves to oscillate the system in some cases boost/load ratios.

But at first i am a total rookie in such thing as tuning the engine to work. So after i tune to perfection the timing/fuelling i will take a more advanced challenge of modding the boost control.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by nighthunter » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:32 pm

Hi everybody. I am continuing to make my car working great. But i want to ask something. Before couple of months, when i first tested my prototype board i discovered that smart has some delay in timing between spark plugs on the same cylinder, but rusefi has only one ignition map. So i can only parallel the spark plugs, wich does not take advantage of the stupidly placed sparkplugs in the small smart head. Someone told me that i can use a 6cylinder and then setup different spark timing for the two sets. Is it true? How can i do it, if it is possible? Will it not then affect the injection start angle? I am asking, because i am designing my final board and if it will not be software possible i will place two parallelled STMs on one board, and i setup one for the primary plugs and the other only for the second plugs.

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by Abricos » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:31 pm

software magic ...

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by russian » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:38 pm

nighthunter wrote:Someone told me that i can use a 6cylinder and then setup different spark timing for the two sets. Is it true? How can i do it, if it is possible?
All such tricks would be specific to what your exact ECU allows you to do. rusEfi unfortunately does not allow to sets of timing maps.

Using 6 cylinder virtual engine with per-cylinder timing offset maybe would actually work, per-cylinder timing offset would be easy to implement. Obviously that's a half-measure but that I can realistically develop soon. See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/371 Need more code contributors :(
nighthunter wrote:i am designing my final board and if it will not be software possible i will place two parallelled STMs on one board, and i setup one for the primary plugs and the other only for the second plugs.
Wow, that's another approach.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:49 pm

If you publish your board either publicly or privately, I can offer an hardware review.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by russian » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:41 am

Too tired to test it today but I might have implemented https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/371

You would need to set 6 cylinders and figure out the magic angle offsets so that three top coils run as your primaries while the other ones would be secondaries.

Bad news that offset would always be the same within current implementation, adding http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... ible_Logic there would be a different story.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by nighthunter » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:12 am

Hi, thanks for the fast response. Lets test it. I will test today/tomorrow and write results. Is it implemented in the latest build? (rusefi firmware 11.03.2017 22:38)?

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by russian » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:29 pm

firmware 20170311 has it, it's probably in that bundle you've mentioned
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by nighthunter » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:21 am

Hi everybody. Now ive tested it and tweaked and it is great. Thanks. Ill upload an video later.

By the way, can i use every single free pin as an ignition or injection outputs, or only the timer pins?

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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by russian » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:27 pm

nighthunter wrote:can i use every single free pin as an ignition or injection outputs, or only the timer pins?
rusEfi uses GPIO for ignition or injection outputs, so any pin
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by nighthunter » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:32 pm

Hi, ive minimized the rusefi board a little to fit an FISHER TUF94 32 100 enclosure. (with a "two floor" design). Now i only have to mod the top "logic" board to use "dualhead" configuration so a double pack of STM32s will be there. Stay tuned. Here is a little video of it starting flawlessly. By the way do not try to use LM1815 for VRs. I used simple differential to nondifferential opamp configuration with zerocross detector and runs good. But in the final design i will use 9926s, wich arrived only yesterday. :-(

[video][/video]

Here is what i used to "parallel" on the original VR wiring. The circuit is pretty self explanatory.
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Re: Smart 452 Roadster with "Bigblock" Engine #33

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:03 pm

You might get a pinch better signal from your op-amp board if you put a weak 2.5V on one of the op-amp inputs. I think the 9926 has that on the negative input. AKA keeps your signal at about 2.5V instead of allowing the overall potential to wander near the op-amp rails.

Sweet, is that a STM32 running rusEFI firmware? Very nice.

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