[help needed] rusEfi needs v12

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:40 pm

Found a BMW M73 v12 engine with ZF 5HP automatic transmission and turn-key wiring for sale locally, that's from a 1998 750iL. This is exactly what rusEfi needs as the next test mule, right?

The guy is asking $1500 and I can justify paying half of that. Would anyone be interested to pitch in $1, $20 or $50 for the other half?

The plan would be to get rusEfi control all the bells and whistles of this engine properly - that's two electrons throttle bodies and dual VANOS and etc.
Probably drop it into some old American Iron once it does not require 50 lbs of German wiring.

https://tinyurl.com/paypal-rusefi
https://www.patreon.com/rusefi

By the way, block length about 31 inches, block width about 30 inches, block with trans total about 65 inches.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:50 am

Wow, there are actually some donations already and this starts to become a reality?!
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:07 am

Is it a single Siemens ECU or a pair of Bosch ECUs?

Earlier versions of this engine had a pair of motronic 1.7 ECUs, basically one running each bank, the later ones had it all moved into one siemens MS ecu.
The earlier version may be easier to work with as there is both a lot more known about the sensors, I have all the resistance curves and the stock voltage divider info for the IAT and CLT and it would be pretty trivial for me to get the MAF transfer function from the ECU for you.

If you are willing to get some Bosch sensors into the place of some of the siemens ones then it would probably be ok but good luck with the siemens MAF sensors as I don't think the transfer function is out there.

One other thing to watch may be that first generation of siemens crank/cam sensor. Some of them are not true VR or Hall effect sensors but some kind of weird hybrid, the Z3 2.8 is a classic example and the early cars have these weird sensors.
http://forums.linkecu.com/topic/6953-do ... nsors-m52/

The simple solution to that one is to use a proper hall effect sensor from an M54 engine (Cheapest).

On either version of the engine the TPS should be ok and at heart they are pretty simple v12 engines so over all not a bad choice for a test mule. They are not far off a pair of M20 engines on the same crankshaft.

Edit to add - Also there are conversion kits to put manual boxes onto these from a few places. a cheap ZF box from a E36 328/ E39 528 or 5 speed M3 is a good option, as are the later manual 3l diesel gearboxes.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:15 am

Thank you, great info!
OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:07 am
Is it a single Siemens ECU or a pair of Bosch ECUs?
The pile of wiring was so huge it was too much effort to look for the ECU!

Seller says it's a 1998 so mid-life_face lift year? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_7_Ser ... e_facelift
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 am

Yep, July 1998 would have been the cross over build dates for the two versions, so could be either :roll: :lol:

I am not seeing the electrically heated catalysts so looks to be an M73 (non TU/N version) which is the early engine and uses the dual ECUs.

I just did a bit of digging and it seem that the single ECU version is actually a Bosch Motronic 5.x unit not a siemens unit, but both version are a weird hybrid of sensor generations.
That means you would be in for a weird combo of E36 318i and later M5x engine sensors. Not the end of the world but a little more complex. At least the info is available for them.

Either way still a good unit and I can probably find you a lot of the info you would need.

You will want this -> http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E38

Also, these things love boost. 4 digit horsepower outputs are possible.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:58 am

At the moment find me some $ :roll: First things first.

http://www.e38registry.org/e38-production-numbers/

VIN number is wbagk232xwdh69xxx, it's a GK23 Pre-Facelift 750iL from 06.1998 (it's before WBAGK2328WDH70031 - 1998-08-31 - 1998 MY) according to http://www.e38registry.org/e38-production-numbers/
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:18 am

I know that feeling but your now $25 closer. Its also not worth the $1500, more like $1000 at best cause there really just isn't a market for them.
Even here in the UK you can pick up whole cars running for £1500.

Putting the last 7 digits of the vin number into this link will tell you exactly what was in/on the car, will even tell you the colour and options the car was ordered with.
http://bmwfans.info/vin/

Also these lumps are not VANOS engines, even if they were the early VANOS is simply on/off based on calculated load.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:34 pm

You can probably sell the extra copper as scrap and get some money out of it :) that's allot of copper. The below page notes bare wire is $2.42 per lbs. However other pages seem to show the harness wire or insulation wire is closer to $0.50 per lbs.
https://rockawayrecycling.com/scrap-metal-prices/
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:01 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:18 am
Also these lumps are not VANOS engines, even if they were the early VANOS is simply on/off based on calculated load.
You are right - this one is definitely not VANOS :( V12 SOHC 24V Single VANOS. 1995-2001. Pre 98 engines were non-VANOS. 150kg/330lbs according to http://www.bimmerforums.com/2009/08/engine-faq/ https://everything2.com/title/VANOS
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by mk e » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:17 pm

Just a warning...V12s can be addicting ;)

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:46 pm

Unfortunately to get VANOS on a V12 you need to go 2003 -> with the N73 and that also comes with the variable valve lift "Valvetronic" system.
It also is 4 valve per cylinder, coil on plug and an alu-sil block so its 450hp and a claimed 240kg with accesories.

The iron v12 short engine is 150kg on its own according to BMW so built its going to be more like 210+. BMW engine weights online are super unreliable.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:53 am

ECU Wiring diagram - https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_docume ... 98_750_e38

That's a funny engine. Two ECUs, individual injector wiring but two distributors - one on each bank. Two distributors and two electronic throttles :) And SOHC and I wonder how tight is it between the banks inside the V. Any more weirdness like water-cooled alternator or something like that?
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by mk e » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:43 am

russian wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:53 am

That's a funny engine. Two ECUs, individual injector wiring but two distributors - one on each bank. Two distributors and two electronic throttles :) And SOHC and I wonder how tight is it between the banks inside the V. Any more weirdness like water-cooled alternator or something like that?
The ferraris were the same way. Even the V8s were dual distributor and dual Ignition controller in the 80s and early 90s, then dual ECU in the late 90s early 2000s. I kind of lost touch after that....but the issue was processor speed as I understand it.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by puff » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:32 am

two distributors - easier for the coils. btw, what's its idle speed and max rpm?

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:04 am

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:07 am
I have all the resistance curves and the stock voltage divider info for the IAT and CLT and it would be pretty trivial for me to get the MAF transfer function from the ECU for you.
You seem to know a lot about these :) Do you know if this epic round throttle body connector is used on anything other than M73? Thinking to get a bench setup at least for the ETB.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:36 pm

The throttle is unique to the V12 as far as I am aware but that does not mean the plug is.

There should be a part number on the plug (BMW put a 7 or 11 digit part number on everything) and from that you should be able to either cross reference the plug with something more common and cheaper or get one direct from the dealer by part number.
Pretty much all of the plugs for the BMWs are available on their own as dealer repair parts if you can give them the part number you need and often it is not as expensive as you would think.
Perfect example is the belt tensioner for the M52 engines, £65 if you ask for an M52 tensioner or using the part number £14 for just the pulley part that screws into the sprung arm as its used on all 4 cylinder cars. :lol:

The M52TU engine has a round plug on its electronic throttle body but I don't know if the pins are the same and if nothing else then you can always order just the connector pins from here:
http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E38/U ... al_system/


A stroke of luck also turned up this attached PDF which states its a 14 pin connector.
https://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/Pdf/EMLIIIs.pdf

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:17 am

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:36 pm
The M52TU engine has a round plug on its electronic throttle body
1433414 throttle body actuator for example, looks like the same 2.5mm pins

Loads of information here, thank you VERY much!

"Each throttle valve is now controlled by two separate stepper motors driving one rotor and shaft (redundancy operation)"

"The pedal position sensor (PWG) now contains three inductive coils for the pedal position input (redundancy operation)"

this EML IIIs is a monster :)
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:30 pm

Just paid for a cheap v12 throttle body with a pigtail - but that's in Russia so it could be either 2 or 6 weeks before I get it in my hands.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:48 am

Plan B: "I couldn’t get the engine running. I can not guarantee it’s good it cranks but doesn’t turn over. As is $200
we picked it up From Behind someone’s house they couldn’t tell
Is anything about it the car is in pretty good shape for the year selling it as is cause we can’t warranty something we didn’t hear run."

1991 750, that's an M70
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by mk e » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:58 pm

do you own it yet?

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:31 pm

mk e wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:58 pm
do you own it yet?
Do not own any v12 yet. I did collect some but not yet enough donations.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Very unlikely that red 750i cannot be made to run. For sensible money maybe not with the stock ECU but it will run.

I know of similar age BMW engines that have sat for 10+ years and still ran with minimal work, even one that sat outside on a pallet for 4 years (under a cover) and then fired right up.

For £200 its a steal.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by puff » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:58 pm

it'd say it's a dream)

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by mk e » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:51 pm

I saw the $200 price and figured it was a done deal :)

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:04 pm

$50 more for starter.

Bigger issue they are 3 hours away one way considering traffic, I would have to cross New York City to go all the way to eastern tip of Long Island. I am not sure if I can put a v12 in the back of my SUV so would probably have to rent a truck? That would all be quite a hassle and for a not running engine :( Damn.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:25 pm

Can you rent a Tow Dolly AKA does your SUV have a ball hitch? I've also seen bumper to bumper tow bars. I don't know where to buy or rent them but I've seen them, so I know they exist.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by XXLO » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:57 am

Hallo.
I have a BMW V12. E31 850i with 5.0L M70 300PS auto transmission.

The BMW M70 started in 1987 with the BMW 750i E32. It was the frist german V12 afer World war 2. Mercedes Benz relaesed in 1991 a 6L 48V 408PS V12.

The early M70 has 2* Motonic 1.2 and a EML. The EML controls the electronic gas pedal and electonic trottle bodys. All DME (ECU) Sensors are twice on the engine. Also two fuel pumps, two preassure regulators. (but one pipe back to gasoline tank)
You can disconnect one DME - the cars runs in limp home mode.

The E31 850i M70 cames with the Motronic 1.7, i think this was also the time, when E32 changed to M1.7.
The M1.2 has bigger ECU and 55Pin connector. The M1.7 has smaler ECU with 88 Pin Connector. I think the EML are working wirh both Motronic versions.

The engine with M1.2 has the oil fill in, in the back at the firewall, the M1.7 on the front.
There is a high performace version of the M70, the S70 850CSi with 5,6L and 381PS. Alpina has a 5,7L version with 416PS.

The sucsessor of the M70 ist 5.4L M73. The M73 is available in the 750i E38 and in the E31 850Ci. (the were also 850Ci with M70)
I am not an M73 expert. I think theese has also two DME and one EML. Motronic 5.2.
The M73 has knock sensors, the M70 not.
To identify M70/M73 its good to look at the black cover between the inlet mannifold. M70 is straigt, M73 looks at the firewall like a "V". Also you can look at the electronc throttle bodys.

M70/M73 has not VANOS. M70/M73 are both aluminum engines.
The is a late M73 version with heated catalysator - if there was other changes, i dont know.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by mk e » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:11 pm

Not yet mentioned yet but it seems pretty important., these engines will fit in a Z3 :twisted:

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:54 pm

I know....

I also have a Z3....

:twisted:

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by mk e » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:08 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:54 pm
I know....

I also have a Z3....

:twisted:
Well why the heck is that engine still in the wrong car?????

Jump in, the water's fine....:)

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