[help needed] rusEfi needs v12

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:22 pm

A tiny step forward
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:41 pm

Also have a lead on N73 from 2003 BMW 760 - that one is direct injected with vanos all over the place. @ do you have similarly amazing links for N73? Mostly interested in fuel system - high pressure pump etc.

10 pages of engine schematics added to https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_docume ... Series_e65 it's definitely a fun read
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:00 pm

Ha, wish I did.

At the moment no but I can do some digging.

N73 is the proper ticket and what works on that should work on all other late BMW engines with similar features.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:01 pm

Sounds like a splendid flow bench :)
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:39 pm

The BMW N73 was the world's first production V12 engine to use direct injection.

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_docume ... Series_e65 shows all the _FIVE_ control units responsible for running these 12 cylinders, more or less one unit for each 2.4 cylinders.

Two ECUs, one variable vale timing gear control module and two DIRECT FUEL INJECTION CONTROL MODULEs.

These Bosch 7506280 units use 121 pin connector but seem to have only about 25 wires going into each - six injector GND, six injector +, six injector signals, power and a couple of CAN signals. The larger chip says 30429, obviously google knows nothing about this 30429.

All this - just to drive the direct injectors as far as I understand. No idea which kind of injectors they had on N73.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:41 am

By the look of it the injectors they are still solenoid type injectors. Fuel pressure maxes out at 120bar so it may not have needed piezo injectors. (or a lack of piezo injectors decided the peak fuel pressure).

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw ... 647512081/ 13647512081

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:21 pm

Thank you!
BTW https://www.avito.ru/ is where you buy weird parts cheap, from Russia. $20 for one used 13647512081 - next step would be finding a matching connector but these seem pretty standard?
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:37 am

I have just noticed we have a set of the same type of direct injectors sitting on an engine in one of the labs in the building. I will ask the guys that work on that test rig to confirm if they are pure solenoid injectors and what kind of driving method they use.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:18 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:37 am
I have just noticed we have a set of the same type of direct injectors sitting on an engine in one of the labs in the building. I will ask the guys that work on that test rig to confirm if they are pure solenoid injectors and what kind of driving method they use.
Hold on, you have to elaborate on all this. Where do you work/study/attend again? How come you just happen to have these pretty unusual injectors in your life? :)
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:47 am

From my poor memory, I recall orchard performance was a kind of group of friends who do some cool cars / custom car shop. For some reason I want to say Canada. I recall the cars were reasonably top notch and certainly a group of automotive enthusiast's. I think it's one of those places with a nice clean shop floor. Dare I say, they probably even pick up their tools when they are done a job. As well I recall many Dodge chargers and similar muscle. I suspect they have lots of cool stuff hanging around. I think they only take on cool and interesting projects.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 pm

Unfortunately not the same place, I assume they are now defunct as I didn't find anything similar before using the username.

I have elaborated by PM.

Edit -

Spoke to the guys involved, they are the same off the shelf injectors and I believe they are the same as the Bosch Motorsport ones
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/ ... 0ESYVS.pdf

Going off the Motorsport spec they are a 65-90v initial burst to get the injectors opening and then a 12v hold to keep them open for the rest of the pulse width.

So 65-90v @ 13.2A for 500us followed by 12v@~3A for the rest of the pulse.

I will get a chance to look at our measured current flows for the injectors tomorrow so will let you know what that shows.

Failing that we might be able to figure out what OEM car the "HPI 5 or HPI 1.16" comes from as all Bosch Motorsport stuff is a variation of an older OEM unit.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/ ... 0EZV1Q.pdf
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/ ... 0ERX1Q.pdf

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:01 am

Status update if anyone is watching how I am making poor decisions here:

M70 from Long Island for $200 from a junk yard - they suddenly asked for $50 more for starter and I am afraid to think how far they would go asking for more money. While that's the cheapest option it's also pretty boring, simply 12 injectors and two coils.

M73 from Central New Jersey, the one from the video is still one of the smartest way to go v12. That engine starts, it comes as a bundle with gearbox etc - a lot of pros overall, but again - a bit boring see above.

N73 from Connecticut is an interesting DI + Vanos engine. 760 was abandoned at a repair shop with gearbox "computer" glitches. At the moment motor and gearbox are outside of the car, the car is also available for sale but shop owner is unable to locate the key. With direct injection and rusEfi having zero direct injection experience I think I need a running vehicle to sniff what would be going on inside the wires, otherwise it's too much guessing. Even if he finds the key, open question is how many control units would have to respond on CAN bus for the security system to start the engine. Open question if it would refuse to start unless SRS or gauge cluster or who knows how many other control units are responding on the bus.

The smart move would be to buy a VW/Audi direct injection test mule and learn GDI on an a disposable test mule before going N73.

https://www.copart.com/lot/29502659 nicer 760 compete car with reconstructed title has a "buy now" price of $3200 and that would turn into $4500 once fees and transportation kicks in. At the moment best offer is $2000 I am curious how that auction would go tomorrow but that's too much for a test mule. Even for an epic test mule.

https://www.copart.com/lot/27083869 has damage all over but engine bay looks straight and it has the key. I've placed my first Copart bid using https://www.autobidmaster.com/ service - that's a copart broker with zero membership fee for Basic membership which only allows bidding on one car at a time with max bid of $4k. Actual auction date not known yet.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:56 am

russian wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:01 am
https://www.copart.com/lot/27083869 has damage all over but engine bay looks straight and it has the key. I've placed my first Copart bid
I have made a mistake placing a binding bid for an unscheduled sale without enough research :(

A bit older but overall waaaaaay better condition 760 has just sold for $800. And that's in CT so shipping would have been cheaper.
https://www.copart.com/lot/29502659
PA - CERT OF SALVAGE-R=RECONSTRUCTED
Run and Drive
$800

I've recorded 6 minutes of bidding with the 760 all the way at the end. Looks like most cars are sold at pre-auction bids.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:35 pm

Looks like no one wants to touch a damaged high tech luxury car for fear of what it will take to repair. :lol:

The CANBUS module side may not be as bad as it sounds, 2 ways to spoof it, record the challenge/response from a running car and basically set up a receiver and script that sends responses to match the challenges. Works for checks that only require a confirmation they are present or only send a few bits of data that are limited in their effect on engine running.
Or, some ECUs of the same generation have been cracked already, that may provide the data to switch off the CAN system checks, the control modules on a lot of the BMWs of that generation are not car specific and are set up in a modular way. So the modules on a 760 may be the same as a 5 series of X5/6. It is certainly true of the I8 that shares a lot of its systems with the 5 series.
What this results in is a surprising amount of simplicity when swapping engines to other chassis of a similar age. An N73 in an E90 3 series is actually a viable possibility with the stock ECU.

Certainly though a full car is the best way to do this if you want to go signal sniffing. Being able to record all the signals bouncing around a working car before trying to make it work in pieces is solid logic.

If you just want something with dual VANOS and Variable Valve lift (Valvetronic) then the N52 might be a good option.
The stock ECU has already been cracked, they are much more common and cheaper which leaves room for prototype hardware/collection costs, they also come in manual version.
They lack the DI but might just fit under a miata bonnet ( :twisted: and performance would be impressive )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N52
https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showth ... p?t=418889


Edit - also its worth a note here, the direct injection is not strictly needed to run a lot of the newer engines, they will run just fine converted to port fuel but will not achieve the same transient and low speed emission.
Some of the turbo charged and downsized stuff does need it due to how knock limited they are but its nothing that could not be solved with native water injection, after all we are hotrodders and not eco-marathon teams.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by 960 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:09 pm

Even if he finds the key, open question is how many control units would have to respond on CAN bus for the security system to start the engine. Open question if it would refuse to start unless SRS or gauge cluster or who knows how many other control units are responding on the bus.

Dont worry about IMMO.

I can remove the IMMO in about all ecu's/cars.
You just need a cheap cable or a Xprog-m to read/write the files.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:36 pm

the MSV70 has been cracked open to work standalone even in chassis as basic as the E30, I will admit I haven't checked what ECU gen is on the N73 :oops: I'm guessing it is an MSV7x series ECU.

Edit - looks like its an ME9.2 unit on the N73

Double edit - I may have a DAMOS file for the 760 M9.2 remind me to take a look.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by 960 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:23 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:36 pm
the MSV70 has been cracked open to work standalone even in chassis as basic as the E30, I will admit I haven't checked what ECU gen is on the N73 :oops: I'm guessing it is an MSV7x series ECU.

Edit - looks like its an ME9.2 unit on the N73

Double edit - I may have a DAMOS file for the 760 M9.2 remind me to take a look.
There are lots of Damos for these.

For these BMW's, you can't program keys(You can, but it was ment unpossible). So you buy them ready at BMW.

The immo is stored in key, EWS/CAS and ecu. They use a system with a ISN code + a rolling code you need to syncronize in EWS/CAS + ECU


But as long as there are Damos and existing solutions, it's a easy fix

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 pm

russian wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:01 am
https://www.copart.com/lot/27083869 has damage all over but engine bay looks straight and it has the key. I've placed my first Copart bid using https://www.autobidmaster.com/ service - that's a copart broker with zero membership fee for Basic membership which only allows bidding on one car at a time with max bid of $4k. Actual auction date not known yet.
Sale date now scheduled! Tue. Mar 26, 2019 10:00 AM EDT
My current $500 bid is "Seller Reserve Not Yet Met" . WAT? They want more for this total piece of?!
Seller has placed a reserve price on the lot.
If the minimum bid is not surpassed during the live auction, Seller has until 6 p.m. (Pacific Time) on the next business day following the day of the auction to accept the bid.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:01 pm

If you just want to try controlling the double infinite variable cam and the variable valve lift then the heap in the link below has both of those features on a 6 pot, I can't see it going for a lot as well... look at it. :lol:

https://www.copart.com/lot/26707289
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:34 am

C'mon, that's too much :)

Here's the fourth attempt to cell that 2003 Salvage title with minor dents, the seller seems to want more than what the market is interested to offer.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:22 pm

russian wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:34 am
C'mon, that's too much :)
:lol:

In all seriousness though, how damaged are you looking at and what the budget estimate? You have thousands of those N52 engines over in the US as they were used on 1, 3, 5, and 7, badged as 25,28,or 30. Even on this side of the pond they are plentiful and relatively cheap.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:37 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:22 pm
In all seriousness though, how damaged are you looking at and what the budget estimate? You have thousands of those N52 engines.
I am probably not interested in N52 - it would be ETB+double vanos in a random engine, that's too little progress and little overall benefits comparing with my current test mules.

v12 has the WOW factor in it, but M70 and M73 are quite boring engines to be honest in terms of ECU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M137_engine has these scary ignition cassettes and again not too challenging.

N73 is definitely a challenge and probably really too much challenge for me to be honest. If I do not win https://www.copart.com/lot/27083869 if I get anything it should be a 2.0 direct inject VAG like https://www.copart.com/lot/49484468 or https://www.copart.com/lot/28476489 - GDI is probably the next frontier for rusEfi and the 2.0 VAG is the cheapest test platform.
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:49 pm

That's fair, V12 is about as large as things get so it is kind of the exotic bench mark and yes the M7x engines are pretty mundane.

With you on the Mercedes engines Mercedes stuff tend to have quite poor aftermarket support as well which can make things pretty hard, even to just get hold of decent wiring diagrams etc.

Those FSI VW engines are not quite normal GDI so it depends what you are trying to do, they are sort of an attempt at a lean burn design so bring with them some issues around injection phasing to the spark timing, if you just want an engine that runs GDI then the ford ecoboost engines may be a better call as the 1.6 and 2.0 4 cylinder engines are a normal direct injection engine but also come with the dual infinite variable camshafts, ETB and turbo with ECU boost control.

They are actually pretty clever lumps and certainly way modern in terms of technology for enthusiast builds. Nothing on them would be too hard to operate from a hardware side but there is certainly nothing ECU wise costing less than $10k that will run one properly at the moment.
Given this is the stock 4 cylinder in the mustang and focus RS and they will fit in the MX-5 or a kit car with minimal work vs the older ford/mazda offerings I can see these being a mega popular engine for swapping in the near future.

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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:55 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:49 pm
With you on the Mercedes engines ... even to just get hold of decent wiring diagrams etc.
Exactly, I was shocked by that! My usual source just has nothing on S600, nada - while loads of info on the BMW v12!

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:49 pm
Those FSI VW engines are not quite normal GDI so it depends what you are trying to do, they are sort of an attempt at a lean burn design so bring with them some issues around injection phasing to the spark timing
Rights, fuel stratified injection. Would not I be able to run it as normal GDI?

I like the ecoboost idea, let me look into that right now.

thank you for the great insights!
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:32 am

I wonder how much would https://www.copart.com/lot/45710858 fetch
https://www.copart.com/lot/27895799 is also a great test mule candidate
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:03 am

russian wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:37 pm
If I do not win https://www.copart.com/lot/27083869
I got overbid. I am probably going to chicken out and not bid more here - I am moving too damn slow as is with the current projects :( I think at the moment VW 2.0T is the most reasonable thing to go next and even that I should not be doing right now, I need to finish a few rusEfi sub-projects before I dive into V12 :(
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:23 pm

first time sale 2006 crashed BMW760 775USD
fifth(?) time sale 2003 BMW760 1450USD



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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:22 pm

I wrote a big long reply the other day but didn't press the post button :oops:

Understandable about the V12, it seems to be a pretty rare beast.

RE VW lumps, some of the engines are using piston guided fuel spray, which means they need a fairly good control of the timing of the injection to coincide with the air motion in the cylinder for a reliable burn. There has been so many versions I'm not 100% which is which but some are and some are not.
They can be run as standard DI engines but they just wont run as well.

You wont need anything as new or luxury as the Lincoln, all ford focus from 2010-2015 in the US are using 2.0 4 cylinder ecoboost engines and there is masses of them about. - Scratch that, I had my info wrong.
A lot of the stuff on the ecoboost is similar/the same as the VW engines from a controller hardware point of view as they are Bosch components and the VVT actuators are the same as the modular ford.
They will also offer you the benefit of being "domestic" motors, i'm sure the parts are cheaper and more common than the VW bits.
I can safely say these engines are actually pretty good, they are reasonably durable and fairly insensitive to the injection timing which might make them "DI testing on easy mode"

Fringe benefit of the Ecoboost is it will prove out rusEFI for most ford DI stuff and likely Mazda L series engines as well (i.e. the later generation miata).
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by russian » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:37 pm

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:22 pm
all ford focus from 2010-2015 in the US are using 2.0 4 cylinder ecoboost engines and there is masses of them about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focu ... th_America says Duratec? Also eBay shows https://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-17-Ford-F ... 3298255594 as NA?

What do you think about Mazda SkyActiv?
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Re: rusEfi needs v12

Post by OrchardPerformance » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:53 pm

Interesting, looks like they did a 2.0 DI non turbo duratec in the US, my mistake.

I will take another look and pay a bit more attention to the US specific versions. I saw the 2.0 and thought it was the ecoboost as the duratec was heading out at that point.

Here's the rundown, there's quite a few base model cars with them in. Mostly light SUV and full size sedan like the edge and fusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoB ... 80%932015)

Edit - also, runs off to take a look at the 2.0 ecoboost vs that GDI lump.

Double edit - Ok looks like I was wrong, we got boosted 1.6 engines and you got 2.0 mazda L engines with direct injection. However that 2.0L engine is the same block and most of the fittings as the ecoboost engine, it was only branded ecoboost when they threw a turbo on it so there is not much difference between the DI duratec and the 2.0 ecoboost.

Maybe that 2.0 DI duratec is a good candidate?
It had the DI you want, has the Ti-VCT system and is much more common and applicable?
It will benefit from all the available aftermarket knowledge on the L engine and the hardware is quite similar to the 2.0 and 2.3 ecoboost.

The skyactive is kind of a souped up L series

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