[rusEfi] Nissan on Frankenso #47

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by ZHoob2004 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:24 pm

filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:45 pm
I thought ignition timing at idle should be near 0 or negative due to low RPM?

15 to 20 degrees advance in idle is okay you mean?

I am using this 60/2 wheel right now. The missing teeth are placed about 90 degrees passing the TDC clockwise and engine turns clockwise. What should my offset trigger be?

I am still having trouble starting this engine. When it starts and gets turning stable it runs ok. Attached is a picture of the engine sniffer for 1 full camshaft rotation. The fuel is injected about 360 ahead of the ignition. The injectors are Bosch that throw 8mg/ms and the engine cyl size is 464cm3

The mixture during cranking is a little reach , any idea that anyone can suggest? Attached is the tune and the engine sniffer pict.

Any recommendation what injection table phase should be? I see that 355 to 359 degrees responds somewhat better than any other value.
I think a lot of your problems are coming from your trigger offset. This is a fixed offset that changes all other angles in the ECU calculations, and has to be set properly to get predictable results.

I've written a rough draft guide on how to set your trigger offset, currently available here (and soon in the main docs)

This may also be helpful, depending on your coil setup. Not necessarily your engine, but the principle still applies.

You should definitely have ~20 degrees advance at idle. This will provide a much smoother idle. This is what vacuum advance does on old distributor-based engines. Cranking advance should probably be 10-15 degrees. If it seems too rich while cranking, reduce the cranking pulse width (I believe this default was set for Miata, which has smaller injectors).

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:03 pm

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:59 pm
I think you don't fully grasp how blind we are to your particular engine. We do not know many things which you do know. Seeing your setup fills in many gaps for us. It is common that other people have posted both simulation situations as well as real engine situations. This might not be your particular scenario, but it has happened in the past. With a history of people doing it, it causes us to ask questions which might seem really basic. Again, you know this because you can see and touch it, while we do not know these basic things. If we make assumptions, it generally causes more frustrations and more delays than any of us care for. So we commonly ask really basic questions.

Did you know that rusEFI has self simulation capabilities? AKA you can very easily switch between simulation and the real world.

It is really handy to have a video, saying this is what I'm doing, and this is the problem, as well here is the log file of what the software captured during this video. Something like that is really helpful in removing our blindfold.

I suspect you are trying to keep you engine setup semi-secret. I also suspect that is some how related to a racing thing. I've seen many race folks with some odd requests to not share pictures and such. It seems those requests happen because they feel it creates some competitive advantage for their competitors. When this happens, it can be really difficult for those of use who are trying to help. I would like to suggest you post more about your application, and you post your log files with more detailed information. If you do that it will make it much easier for us to help you over the hurdles.
That is not the case really. If I was having a semi-secret engine I would not have asked you to stop by my shop.
The video will not tell you anything, it is an engine buzzing when it runs and it runs okay,

My trouble is that it the engine does not start easy. Cranking is hard. The ignition timing is fine and the injection phase has been tried for all possible values to get this engine to start properly and after many tries if I increase the fuel the spark plugs get wet and I have to replace them. What can I show you in a video of an engine that does not start?

Is there any VE table phase recommended value that I can use. My values are at 355 degrees and that seem to help a little but not start the engine. Increasing fuel does not help either. I have switched from the latest Bosch injectors 620cc/min or 8mg/ms to siemens 440cc/min or 6mg/ms to the type that volvo uses 315cc/min or 4.3mg/ms but nothing seem to help.

Is there any cranking table that is recommended for 4 cycle individual coils?
Last edited by filip5 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:10 pm

No stating logs. No cranking video. Based on what information do you expect people to provide guidance?
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:22 pm

russian wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:10 pm
No stating logs. No cranking video. Based on what information do you expect people to provide guidance?
Does your engine start correctly? I am not saying that is Rusefis fault. Rusefi is doing everything correct in my opinion but I don't know why this thing will not start unless I use starting fluids and things like that. Do you have a TS project to see what values u use, I did send you the TS project of my engine

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:25 pm

Fresh TunerStudio project for fresh firmwaee has 'popular vehicles presets' button in right-bottom side of menues, first popular vehicle is miana na6 stage 0 which starts good enough. Press the button and get youeself a working confiig.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:40 pm

russian wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:25 pm
Fresh TunerStudio project for fresh firmwaee has 'popular vehicles presets' button in right-bottom side of menues, first popular vehicle is miana na6 stage 0 which starts good enough. Press the button and get youeself a working confiig.
This project miana na6 that u recommended does not connect to Rusefi. Is it supposed to connect?

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:45 pm

Can you take a picture of your trigger wheel setup, and ignition setup? Where is the trigger wheel mounted?

Injection phase won't make starting the engine any easier or harder. -360 to -400 degrees is pretty much reasonable for all possible engine setups (this setting sets when the injector CLOSES, which you want to occur around the same time that the intake valve OPENS, which is near TDC 360 degrees before ignition). It can help a little bit with smooth idle and emissions, but for startup it doesn't matter.

Set cranking advance to 10 degrees. That should be fine for pretty much all conceivable engine setups.
filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:03 pm
What can I show you in a video of an engine that does not start?
A lot, actually. The sound it makes is pretty useful to help diagnose. A picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is worth several thousand pictures.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:48 pm

For ignition timing reference:
My car currently has a factory GM ECU running the engine.

Cranking advance: 6-12 degrees BTDC depending upon temperature

Idle advance ~23 degrees, but varies a bit as it helps control idle with ignition timing.

At low engine loads, the engine is VERY tolerant of lots of advance. My volvo engine (2.3L 4cyl, 8 valve) idled pretty happily with anything from 10-40 degrees of timing at idle. I set it to 18-22 or something and forgot about it.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:05 pm

This is apparently what the stock KA24DE timing map looks like:

Image

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:41 pm

mck1117 thank you.

I just wanted to see a injection table phase for nissan or any other engine, the advance ignition I do not believe to be a problem. My injection phase is et at 355 degrees which i believe could also be -365 degrees. There is not much really here that is why it has got me wondering.

I am using a volvo s80 engine on a bench that happens to have a 60/2 wheel with hall sensor. It is mounted into the crankshaft back of the engine next to the shifting box

I will post a video of the cranking tomorrow now I have removed the fuel line.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:53 pm

filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:41 pm
I just wanted to see a injection table phase for nissan or any other engine, the advance ignition I do not believe to be a problem. My injection phase is et at 355 degrees which i believe could also be -365 degrees. There is not much really here that is why it has got me wondering.
Near -360/+360 is fine for injection phase. Remember that plenty of cars used batch injection (all injectors fire together) that was completely un-timed, so the engine will run just fine if you completely ignore injection phase.
filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:41 pm
I am using a volvo s80 engine on a bench that happens to have a 60/2 wheel with hall sensor. It is mounted into the crankshaft back of the engine next to the shifting box
Same style sensor/wheel as on my volvos. I'm going to be that your engine starts about half of the time. With only a crankshaft position sensor, the ECU can't know whether a particular cylinder is at TDC compression stroke (time for ignition) or TDC exhaust stroke (not time for ignition). So when you crank the engine, it just picks one, so it's a 50/50 chance that it chooses correctly.

The solution if you don't have a camshaft position sensor is to go in to ignition settings, and enable "two wire wasted" mode. This will enable wasted spark, firing every spark plug every revolution. If a cylinder is on the compression stroke, it will ignite the fuel (as desired), and if it's on an exhaust stroke, nothing will happen (which is fine).

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:14 am

Good to see some pics. Some observations.
-- Soldered wires direct to the PCB, so likely a decent connection.
-- Looks like soldered splices, perhaps multiple GND's combined to one solder joint. Multiple GND's like this could be a ground loop or ground voltage lifting problem. We'll pay attention to this potential. For now that does not appear to be the immediate problem.
-- Looks like the wires to the crank / cam sensors are not twisted. This is probably not a big deal for idle, but should be of concern at higher RPM's. This can be a source of jitter, which could contribute to your comments about TDC jumping around.
-- Looks like OEM connectors at the sensors.
-- Not in a metal box, so very different RF considerations.
-- It probably has a clutch and flywheel, which increases the inertia. This is good to know.
-- VE is likely like no other reference, as this is a DIY design. So we should expect that will change the tune allot.
-- I don't see a WO2. Can you measure your AFR some how?

Observations about cranking can include
-- Did you crank it long enough? I've seen Miata's which crank for about 3 seconds or so before they have a chance of catching. A video shows if you simply cranked it long enough to have a chance of obtaining crank sync.
-- Of course the sound can tell us by ear your ball park RPM and if you are seeing rapid changes in crank angle. As well we can estimate your cranking RPM.
-- The shaking of your stand tells us if ignition is to far advanced, as it would should more shaking than the starting can introduce.

Any how, there are many things we can observe if you post a video, a tune, and log of a situation. As well a reasonably detailed explanation of what you think is wrong.

Also please keep in mind, I get to offer help for about 10 minutes in the evening after the family goes to bed.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:19 am

mck1117 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:53 pm
filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:41 pm
I just wanted to see a injection table phase for nissan or any other engine, the advance ignition I do not believe to be a problem. My injection phase is et at 355 degrees which i believe could also be -365 degrees. There is not much really here that is why it has got me wondering.
Near -360/+360 is fine for injection phase. Remember that plenty of cars used batch injection (all injectors fire together) that was completely un-timed, so the engine will run just fine if you completely ignore injection phase.
filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:41 pm
I am using a volvo s80 engine on a bench that happens to have a 60/2 wheel with hall sensor. It is mounted into the crankshaft back of the engine next to the shifting box
Same style sensor/wheel as on my volvos. I'm going to be that your engine starts about half of the time. With only a crankshaft position sensor, the ECU can't know whether a particular cylinder is at TDC compression stroke (time for ignition) or TDC exhaust stroke (not time for ignition). So when you crank the engine, it just picks one, so it's a 50/50 chance that it chooses correctly.

The solution if you don't have a camshaft position sensor is to go in to ignition settings, and enable "two wire wasted" mode. This will enable wasted spark, firing every spark plug every revolution. If a cylinder is on the compression stroke, it will ignite the fuel (as desired), and if it's on an exhaust stroke, nothing will happen (which is fine).

mck1117, thank you very much. I see your point. But I have connected the wires for this sensor in the input for the cam sensor. It did not seem to have any effect when I connected them in the place where crankshaft sensor wires go. Rusefi did not respond to hall sensor signals when wires were soldered in crankshaft inputs. Is there anything in the settings to get both inputs on Rusefi to recognize both signals? I can add a cam sensor.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:25 am

Can you upload the tune you're using?

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:59 am

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:25 am
Can you upload the tune you're using?
Attached it the tune . I also posted it yesterday. Attached is also a picture that shows the engine sniffer. The wires from the crank sensor are connected to the inputs of the cam sensor in Rusefi board. I could not get rusefi to recognize signals of the crank sensor when sensor wires were soldered in crank inputs so I soldered them in cam sensor input instead and it looked like I got 720 degrees because there are 2 sections of the 2 teeth missing in 720 degrees.

I see my miss, how could the controller know when piston is at TDC for the ignition and not the end of exhaust but still out of so many tries couldn't I have hit once right to start this engine? I had selected trigger type 60/2 and operation mode 4 stroke with cam sensor.

If I select 2 wire wasted and wasted mode can I still leave the crank hall sensor connected to the cam input in Rusefi board or do I have to solder to crank input holes? I prefer to have crank sensor connected to cam input because it will give me more resolution I think.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:15 am

Oh, I just realized that I'm actually running the exact same setup on my car. I have a Volvo b230 with a 60-2 flywheel, and individual coils (but no cam sensor!).

Here are my trigger, ignition, and injection settings: Yours look pretty close to mine, which is good.

Image

It fires up very reliably (rather, as reliably as it can with my gigantic 300 degree duration camshaft - it was fine with my smaller cam). I'd focus on getting it starting reliably on these settings before trying to run a cam sensor and full sequential ignition. You'll have much better luck diagnosing things if you get an absolute minimum setup to behave itself, then change one thing at a time until you're at the final configuration you want.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by mck1117 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:19 am

filip5 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:59 am
If I select 2 wire wasted and wasted mode can I still leave the crank hall sensor connected to the cam input in Rusefi board or do I have to solder to crank input holes? I prefer to have crank sensor connected to cam input because it will give me more resolution I think.
Rusefi doesn't actually care where you wire cam vs. crank. The names on the board are a formality that corresponds to the default settings in the tune. The hardware and software are exactly the same for both channels.

Your tune is configured to use the inputs marked as "cam" on the ECU as the primary. Leave the wiring and tune as they are, they will work fine as-is.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:39 am

filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:40 pm
This project miana na6 that u recommended does not connect to Rusefi. Is it supposed to connect?
This is not a project, this is a preset button. Yes supposed to connect. Please confirm that you are running recent firmware i.e. so that your firmware is compatible with your project.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:40 am

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:19 am
The names on the board are a formality that corresponds to the default settings in the tune.
The names on the board could be making more bad than good by confusing people :(
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:04 pm

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:15 am
Oh, I just realized that I'm actually running the exact same setup on my car. I have a Volvo b230 with a 60-2 flywheel, and individual coils (but no cam sensor!).

Here are my trigger, ignition, and injection settings: Yours look pretty close to mine, which is good.

Image

It fires up very reliably (rather, as reliably as it can with my gigantic 300 degree duration camshaft - it was fine with my smaller cam). I'd focus on getting it starting reliably on these settings before trying to run a cam sensor and full sequential ignition. You'll have much better luck diagnosing things if you get an absolute minimum setup to behave itself, then change one thing at a time until you're at the final configuration you want.
Mck1117, it looks we have an identical engine. Could you please send me your entire TS project so I can try it?


Thank you
Last edited by filip5 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:50 pm

russian wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:39 am
filip5 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:40 pm
This project miana na6 that u recommended does not connect to Rusefi. Is it supposed to connect?
This is not a project, this is a preset button. Yes supposed to connect. Please confirm that you are running recent firmware i.e. so that your firmware is compatible with your project.
It looks like I am pulling info out of you with a set of pliers. Could you cooperate and just write few more lines to explain how and where this button function?

You see that I am asking for assistance.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:14 pm

Image
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:52 pm

Error on Rusefi,

Rusefi losses value of MAP sensor, MAp value drops to zero in the gauge. My MAP is in PC2. For some reasons the value of 1.76 volts on PC2 is not recognized by rusefi. This happen right before rusefi does no longer wants to connect to TS despite several attempts and than when the power is turned off several times and TS closed, an error comes on display " unexpected MAP value" because it is zero and rusefi shuts down fuel injection and ignition. Somewhat the error is recognized on Rusefi exe when it shows that flash is no good.


After that only a chip erasing by ST link and uploading of Rusefi hex file will get it going again but it than happens again. I am wondering is because of one of my settings causing it ? Before this happens I swapped some inputs and got a input conflict , a fatal error. Changing the top board with another one does not solve the problem.
Just replaced the entire Rusefi unit with another one, same thing. Changing MAp to another input does not solve the problem.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:51 am

MAP error seems like a smaller problem comparing with the whole firmware corruption and necessity for complete reflash?

These symptoms do not ring any bells. What are you doing before it happens? Just running the engine? Or changing some settings while engine is running?

I see you use micro USB which means USB connectivity - this one is the more fragile and electrical spikes affect it more than the FDTI TTL port on the red board. Still, complete reflash is more than just loss of connectivity.

Thank you for these two pictures they provide some context.
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:44 am

russian wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:51 am
MAP error seems like a smaller problem comparing with the whole firmware corruption and necessity for complete reflash?

These symptoms do not ring any bells. What are you doing before it happens? Just running the engine? Or changing some settings while engine is running?

I see you use micro USB which means USB connectivity - this one is the more fragile and electrical spikes affect it more than the FDTI TTL port on the red board. Still, complete reflash is more than just loss of connectivity.

Thank you for these two pictures they provide some context.
I start the engine in cranking mode and I see MAP drop from 101kpa to zero, but the actual MAP pressure gauge shows about 0.8 bars so it is not zero. I dont think I have seen this before. I just saw it today. Stop cranking MAP gauge goes up again. I thought first that it was the MAP sensor issue. Changed it the same issue persisted. After the MAP drops to zero Rusefi still fires ignition and injectors. After I do that operation few times I am not sure how exactly happens but rusefi refuses to connect to TS I think and if I do reset the power after powering on the MAP unexpected value comes up and gauge on TS drop to zero and does not recover anymore. Rusefi stops firing. I changed the top board and programmed it. First it was good and I thought the board went bad but the issues persisted with this new board. Replaced complete rusefi with another unit same thing. I did open another previous TS and that project restored old values and MAP gauge recovered to different value because it had a different MAP setting. At that point I thought my existing TS project got corrupted but after a while the problem happened again.

I will enclose rusefi tomorrow in a box. Maybe it is noise now that you are saying it, but usually noise errors disappear after reboot unless there is a electrical damage. But this again is restored only after complete erase with St link utility and hex reload so the board is not damaged .

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by Dron_Gus » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:50 am

Symptoms look like ground shift.
Do you have separate ground so sensors? Does this ground connected through ECU or mounted to engine?

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:14 pm

Can you connect a multi-meter to the pins on the discovery, and then measure a voltage while rusEFI claims there is no voltage? I agree, this sounds like a wiring issue. We have not yet heard of any reports like this that turned out to be a software defect. So I'm inclined to think this is a hardware problem. Connecting a multi-meter directly to the discovery is a good way to isolate if this is software or hardware related. Of course pictures and / or videos help allot in diagnosing something like this.

See below post, which is a good example of support request. Notice they provided both the tune, as well as the log file and a video showing many critical things. If you could do similar it would help us help you.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1282&start=101
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:23 pm

I checked yesterday the voltage on the input of the rusefi main board, it was 1.75volts.That is coming from the sensor. I also checked some other voltages for other inputs. O2 is connected to PA0 and had similar voltage of about 1.8 volts.

In the disovery board the voltage on these 2 pins is about 0.84 volts for both more or less, but AFR gauge shows correctly while MAP gauge is zero.

If I go then and swap inputs PC2 that is for MAP with PA0 for O2 in TS to see how gauges will behave without doing any thing else the AFR will show about the same that is I think around 12 while the MAP will still show zero and that will not change till I flash the discovery memory. So this is no hardware issue as you know.

If it was a voltage issue I would not have bothered you. You should read my previous post carefully. Nothing helps till memory is flashed thru ST link only.

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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by russian » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm

filip5 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:44 am
But this again is restored only after complete erase with St link utility and hex reload so the board is not damaged .
So far I do not recall anyone experiencing anything similar.

How often does it happen? Do you have anything connected via miniUSB or microUSB cables? Is that a laptop running on battery or something connected to a wall plug?

Are you sure the issues is not resolved if you simply disconnect and reconnect the wires and reboot the laptop, without reflashing the stm32?
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Re: Nissan on Frankenso #47

Post by filip5 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:41 pm

russian wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm
filip5 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:44 am
But this again is restored only after complete erase with St link utility and hex reload so the board is not damaged .
So far I do not recall anyone experiencing anything similar.

How often does it happen? Do you have anything connected via miniUSB or microUSB cables? Is that a laptop running on battery or something connected to a wall plug?

Are you sure the issues is not resolved if you simply disconnect and reconnect the wires and reboot the laptop, without reflashing the stm32?
I will ship this board to you. I may have loaded the wrong tune yesterday. This is the tune I am using Test1, attached. Unplugin Discovery completely and plugin it back will not solve the issue. The board that you will receive will have the issue on it.
Attachments
Test1.msq
(138.53 KiB) Downloaded 45 times

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