[Success Story] Making my 190e More Fun (M111 Twincharged Swap) #57 [Hellen]

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Making my 190e More Fun (M111 Twincharged Swap) #57 [Hellen]

Post by duhafnusa4 »

Hello all!

I have been searching for a while for the best budget efi that has electric throttle control and found that RusEFIMicro pretty much meets all my needs.

Heres the specs:

1988 Mercedes 190e 2.3 sohc Auto, getting a M111 2.3 DOHC Supercharged 4 cyl from a 2000 SLK230. It has 2 coil on plug with wasted spark (like an evo), electric throttle and electric supercharger bypass, as well as electric clutch supercharger pulley. I want to be able to control all of this, and convert to audi coil on plug.

I already have the SLK230 and have stripped the stock wiring and pinned out the stock engine harness in hopes that I can use it still.

Image

Image

My previous standalone experience is with MS3. Thanks for letting me join you :)
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by AndreyB »

Hello and welcome!

Electric supercharger bypass, as well as electric clutch supercharger pulley - what kind of devices are those, what kind of control would you need on those? Need to carefully count all the outputs you would need.

Where are you located? There is the https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1146 sticky post here.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by AndreyB »

What kind of crankshaft trigger wheel do you have? Is it a 60/2 or something weird?

Do not know if it's a VR or Hall. If you say it's a two wire sensor those are often VR.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:38 pm
Hello and welcome!

Electric supercharger bypass, as well as electric clutch supercharger pulley - what kind of devices are those, what kind of control would you need on those? Need to carefully count all the outputs you would need.

Where are you located? There is the https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1146 sticky post here.
Hi :D

The supercharger bypass is an on/off switch essentially. The Supercharger clutch is the same thing. Both triggered by 12v. In stock form, the supercharger isnt engaged until 2000 rpm, but I want all the boost all the time, so maybe have it linked to TPS value? less than 10% and off or something?

I am in Bowling Green KY, USA. Not many people in the USA mod the M111 but its a great engine, and so is RusEFI!
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:40 pm
What kind of crankshaft trigger wheel do you have? Is it a 60/2 or something weird?

Do not know if it's a VR or Hall. If you say it's a two wire sensor those are often VR.
Im pretty sure its VR, but I am considering adding a new sensor on the crank pulley. it currently uses a ring on the flex plate
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:59 pm
AndreyB wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:40 pm
What kind of crankshaft trigger wheel do you have? Is it a 60/2 or something weird?

Do not know if it's a VR or Hall. If you say it's a two wire sensor those are often VR.
Im pretty sure its VR, but I am considering adding a new sensor on the crank pulley. it currently uses a ring on the flex plate
It's almost guaranteed to be a 60-2 pattern VR sensor. Almost every single Bosch EFI setup since the 80s has used that configuration, regardless of who built the engine it's on. There's not much reason to change it - 60-2 VR is very well supported, and it's free since Mercedes already went to the hassle of installing it for you.
duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 pm
and convert to audi coil on plug.
There's not a whole lot of benefit going to CoP over wasted - you probably won't detect any actual benefit to running individual coils.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:54 pm
duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:59 pm
AndreyB wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:40 pm
What kind of crankshaft trigger wheel do you have? Is it a 60/2 or something weird?

Do not know if it's a VR or Hall. If you say it's a two wire sensor those are often VR.
Im pretty sure its VR, but I am considering adding a new sensor on the crank pulley. it currently uses a ring on the flex plate
It's almost guaranteed to be a 60-2 pattern VR sensor. Almost every single Bosch EFI setup since the 80s has used that configuration, regardless of who built the engine it's on. There's not much reason to change it - 60-2 VR is very well supported, and it's free since Mercedes already went to the hassle of installing it for you.
duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 pm
and convert to audi coil on plug.
There's not a whole lot of benefit going to CoP over wasted - you probably won't detect any actual benefit to running individual coils.
Thanks for the info, use what I’m given right? And yeah no need to change coils when it works. What about tuner studio? I already have pro, is that you use?
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by AndreyB »

Yes.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

AndreyB wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:20 pm
Yes.
What about the electric throttle control? Mercedes used a conventional cable pedal going to a tps. Then that signal the ecu told the TB where to be. How would I run that?
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by 960 »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:30 pm
What about the electric throttle control? Mercedes used a conventional cable pedal going to a tps. Then that signal the ecu told the TB where to be. How would I run that?
Just like a normal Pedal/TPS?

The cable goes to the "Pedal" Sensor, and the TPS are at the throttle.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by Abricos »

Maybe your MB have 2 ETB ... One on compressor as bypass ... Other is on intake manifold ... ?
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by AndreyB »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:30 pm
Mercedes used a conventional cable pedal going to a tps. Then that signal the ecu told the TB where to be. How would I run that?
In case of electronic throttle body we usually use the term "tps" for sensors INSIDE TB. Sensors related to pedal are "pps" - pedal position sensor. Does not matter if the sensor is right on the pedal or if there is a cable between pedal and sensor.

Not sure what is your question exactly? It would just work exactly as you've described.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:41 am
duhafnusa4 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:30 pm
Mercedes used a conventional cable pedal going to a tps. Then that signal the ecu told the TB where to be. How would I run that?
In case of electronic throttle body we usually use the term "tps" for sensors INSIDE TB. Sensors related to pedal are "pps" - pedal position sensor. Does not matter if the sensor is right on the pedal or if there is a cable between pedal and sensor.

Not sure what is your question exactly? It would just work exactly as you've described.
Thanks for all the responses! My mistake yes, the pps is in the engine bay with cable attached to it, the tps in the TB.

I meant, there's no electric TB configuration in tunerstudio (as far as I know). I'm looking for help on the setup and configuration of that (is there a feedback so the ECU sees tps position, and makes sure it matches pps?)

Thanks :)
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

Oh also does rusefi micro work with Bluetooth and with that tablet display? Or raspberry pi with a touchscreen for tuning/monitor?
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by AndreyB »

Rusefi worked with bluetooth at some time for sure. No one has tried BT in any relation to microRusEfi board.

Tunerstudio for rusefi is a custom project with custom dialogs. Please wait until you have your unit and have a chance to play with it.

I would recommend taking TB and PPS out of car and tuning those on a bench. Please post image of your TB and TB plug.

ETB in rusEfi is one of the least tested features. Hopefully you would document your progress for people to learn from it
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:21 am
I meant, there's no electric TB configuration in tunerstudio (as far as I know). I'm looking for help on the setup and configuration of that (is there a feedback so the ECU sees tps position, and makes sure it matches pps?)

Thanks :)
That's something we're currently working on making more user friendly (and safer). There is already a page for it in TS, in the "Controller" menu at the far right.

Since it's not *quite* ready for prime time, how long do you think it'll be before you have it ready to run on rusEfi?
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:33 am
Oh also does rusefi micro work with Bluetooth and with that tablet display? Or raspberry pi with a touchscreen for tuning/monitor?
The only think I know that's been tried is running TS on an rPi. I've done it before, and while a little slow, it actually works just fine.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:01 am
duhafnusa4 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:21 am
I meant, there's no electric TB configuration in tunerstudio (as far as I know). I'm looking for help on the setup and configuration of that (is there a feedback so the ECU sees tps position, and makes sure it matches pps?)

Thanks :)
That's something we're currently working on making more user friendly (and safer). There is already a page for it in TS, in the "Controller" menu at the far right.

Since it's not *quite* ready for prime time, how long do you think it'll be before you have it ready to run on rusEfi?
Probably in the next few weeks, I plan on doing plenty of testing with the engine on the stand the verify complete control and stability of the rusefi micro managing it, then I'll swap it into the 190e chassis. I'll be thoroughly documenting everything is I go also.

Having some kind of safety features (ie if signals don't match, kill engine) would put a lot of people at ease. I love etb, and want to use it for idle control, cruise, launch control, traction control, etc... So much that can be done.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

Tomorrow I'll gather all the specs, part numbers and data that I can from the m111 engine.

Cam:
Crank:
Knock:
Etb:
Tps:
Pps:
Iat:
CLT:
Vvt:
Map:
SC ETB:
Ig coils:
Injector:
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:26 am
Tomorrow I'll gather all the specs, part numbers and data that I can from the m111 engine.
One of the most useful things is just the engine wiring diagram - it can often give away a lot about how various systems function. You presumably still have a functioning factory ECU too, so there's some reverse engineering we can do there if there's doubt about how something works.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

Did a little digging with @Crazy Striker since we were bored...

Image

Looks like the bypass valve is super easy to control with just PWM.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

Here is my Throttle Body:

Bosch 0280750074

Image

Image

Image

I have fully pinned out the ECU and noted what each is for (along with some googling and pixelated diagrams online) I have all the data for each pin in the ecu :D

These are for the Throttle Pedal (PPS):

Connector "C"

22 Throttle Pedal Sensor Voltage Supply (4.75 -5.25 V)
23 Throttle Pedal Sensor Signal 1 (- 0.2 - 4.8 V)
24 Throttle Pedal Sensor Signal 1 (+ 0.2 - 4.8 V)
25 Throttle Pedal Sensor Signal 2 (- 0.1 - 2.5 V)
26 Throttle Pedal Sensor Signal 2 (+ 0.1 - 2.5 V)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And the Throttle Body:
Connector "E"

31 EA/CC/ISC (Throttle Body?) 4.0 - 4.6 V
32 EA/CC/ISC low (Throttle Body?) +5V
33 EA/CC/ISC high (Throttle Body?) +5V
34 EA/CC/ISC 0.3 - 0.9 V (Key on)

Connector "F"

1 EA/CC/ISC actuator motor control signal low (0.8 2.3 V)
2 EA/CC/ISC actuator motor control signal high (1.0 - 2.5V; ign off : 10 ohms)


The Throttle Body itself on the connector has 6 pins (corresponding to Connector "E" 31-34 & Connector "F" 1 & 2)

In regards to the PPS, This is what I found searching, from a mercedes Forum

link: https://www.slkworld.com/threads/throttle-position-sensor.410345/
I did some research online while coming home on the train and I found out that the actual Throttle Pedal Position Sensor (TPS) is in fact two magnets that rotate when the accelerator is pressed and that this rotation is measured by two Hall-effect sensors on the body of the TPS. This means you can't test them by measuring their resistance - they don't work like that. Instead, you need to provide 5VDC and then you can measure their output voltage as you press the accelerator. I've attached a PDF workshop file from a CLK which shows a very similar configuration and also explains the inner workings of the TPS. I've also learnt that CTP stands for Closed Throttle Position and WOT stands for Wide Open Throttle. It's the two reference points that are used to test the TPS.

Pin 1 - Connects to N3/10 pin 29 - Should read +5V with ignition on to pin 37
Pin 2 - Not connected
Pin 3 - Connects to N3/10 pin 36 - This is the -ive point for the sensor
Pin 4 - Connects to N3/10 pin 26 - Ignition on, accelerator pedal: up (CTP) approx. 0.1-0.4 VDC to pin 36 / down (WOT) approx. 2.1-2.5 VDC to pin 36
Pin 5 - Connects to N3/10 pin 27 - Ignition on, accelerator pedal: up (CTP) approx. 0.2-0.5 VDC to pin 36 / down (WOT) approx. 4.3-4.8 VDC to pin 37
Pin 6 - Connects to N3/10 pin 37 - This is the -ive point for the sensor
Image

This matches the values from the ECU inputs (5 pins on Connector "C") but........This has the sensor on the pedal itself, not in the engine bay like mine is. Ill be do more research to verify, but the sensor in my engine bay also is a 6 pin plug with only 5 pins used.

Hope this info helps
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by AndreyB »

This ETB looks very similar to our most favorite VAG ETB, we believe we know how to set those at least on the bench.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:44 pm
This ETB looks very similar to our most favorite VAG ETB, we believe we know how to set those at least on the bench.
I would be ok with adapting to the VAG one (especially if its a little bigger for more power ;) ) and I have easy access to those.
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

Either way should be fine - both the VAG one and Mercedes are Bosch, so the control is identical. Like I said previously, get it running on the existing hardware first - change one thing at a time :D
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

Sounds like a plan.

I have autotune in tunerstudio, has anyone used it with the rusefi micro?
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by mck1117 »

duhafnusa4 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:58 pm
I have autotune in tunerstudio, has anyone used it with the rusefi micro?
Yep, use it all the time. Works great! Btw, unlike some other ECUs (Megasquirt, for example) our firmware is 99% identical across different ECUs, so any functionality should be the same on any rusEfi ECU (so long as the hardware for it is installed).
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

mck1117 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:24 pm
duhafnusa4 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:58 pm
I have autotune in tunerstudio, has anyone used it with the rusefi micro?
Yep, use it all the time. Works great! Btw, unlike some other ECUs (Megasquirt, for example) our firmware is 99% identical across different ECUs, so any functionality should be the same on any rusEfi ECU (so long as the hardware for it is installed).
:D :D :D :D :D :D I love rusefi
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

OK here we go lots of info incoming :D

Cam: AB Brand?
499901
A0041530028
3 pin
Image
Image

Crank:
Cant see part number, 2 pins
Image

Knock: Siemens Brand
2 Pin
A003............
Image

Etb:Already posted

Pps: AB Brand?
6 Pin
509911A
A012-542-33-17
Image

SuperCharger Bypass: Bosch VDO?
3 Pin
111 098 00 09
408.224/001/001
Image

Iat: In MAF I Think, looks just like VAG MAF. Bosch
5 Pin
0280217114
Image

CLT: BERU
2 Pin
0824121051
A000542
Image

Vvt: Binder?
2 Pin
A1190510077
Image

Map: Denso
3 Pin
0115420617
Image

Ig coils:Cant Find Brand
1 Pin (whats going on here, I know its wasted spark)
Image

Boost Control?: Binder
2 Pin
56E90130F06
EV0001
A0005409897
Image
Image

Injector: Siemens 14.4 ohm 300 cc

Man thats a lot of good info to work with :D
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Re: Making my 190e More Fun (M111 SC Swap)

Post by duhafnusa4 »

Found out more, that Binder solenoid isnt for boost, its for EGR. Its getting deleted haha
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