[rusEfi] 1995 Dodge Neon

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:59 pm

1995 dodge neon. My test bench engine is a SOHC, I currently have cars with a 1998 dohc and a 1995 dohc turbocharged. All use the same cam and crank sensor configuration.
420a-cam-crank-420a.jpg
420a-cam-crank-420a.jpg (41.61 KiB) Viewed 10081 times
In your install are you running injectors sequential or batch fire? Also is spark by cylinder or wasted spark?


User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by russian » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:21 pm

Wow, you come prepared :) Do you know the type of your crankshaft sensor - is it a VR or something more discrete like a Hall sensor?

On my test vehicle I've got sequential injection and spark is by cylinder - but all that is pretty configurable. Right now I am moving all the scheduling from a model where things are defined by a combination of 'event id' (falls and downs within a particular revolution) and angle offsets to a model with pure angle offsets. Actually, that's something I better change like today or tomorrow.

https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/code/H ... aspire.cpp - you are interested in the 'configureEngineEventHandler' method - is what defined the reaction scheme. Do not worry I will take of this, that's just FYI.

I will now create a configuration for your engine and implement a signal emulator so that we can run some tests on the bench.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by russian » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:52 am

Here is an half-finished simulated signal
Image

You picture is not exactly in scale :( You see how first CAM rise is say at 80, and the last fall is supposed to be at 80+210+150+150=590 but on the picture it's more like 550. Technically this is not a big deal, but first step would be just cranking and recording the exact shape of the signal so that we can match assign exact angles to all the events.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3407
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA
Contact:

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:33 am

This is probably a better place to answer my questions about the build than in the hello thread where I asked them. I see you have already answered some of my questions in this thread. So lets carry on here instead of there.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by Vanquizor » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:45 pm

I don't know if I'm prepared or not, but I do know neons inside out and backwards. I also have a couple years of factory service manuals in case I don't remember the technical details.

The crank is a magnetic Hall sensor that reads off a tooth wheel cast into the crank couterweight, cam sensor works on the same principle but places the magnet on the cam. The they run ~5 volts in high mode and are pulled down to ~0.3v for the cam and ~0.5v for the crank in low mode.

As configured from the factory the neon ignition uses 2 coils pairing cyl 1&4 and cyl 2&3 in a wasted spark configuration with ecu controled spark timing. Fuel is sequential injection using high impedance injectors.

That being said I have the knowledge and spare parts to run the engine in a coil on plug configuration as well, and if required for simplicity sake I can batch the injectors.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by russian » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:55 pm

Vanquizor wrote:The crank is a magnetic Hall sensor that reads off a tooth wheel cast into the crank couterweight, cam sensor works on the same principle but places the magnet on the cam. The they run ~5 volts in high mode and are pulled down to ~0.3v for the cam and ~0.5v for the crank in low mode.
That actually makes this much easier, I was afraid that crank would be variable reluctance (VR).

Do you have any single pin wires or can you get some single pin female wires (#1) like
Image
With that you should be able to wire up both position sensor wires right to the discovery board - without any boards or amplifiers. A breadboard (#2) like
Image
might also help if we would need to put a 103 capacitor (#3), but there is a chance this would work without the breadboard and the capacitor.

We would need to record the position sensors at constant RPMs just to get a precise event<>angle table.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by Vanquizor » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:33 pm

maybe a little more detail would help... the signature tooth on the crank is 60 degrees wide, the other slots are 5 degrees wide and slots have a 15 degree gap between them. TDC happens at the falling edge of the 4th (last) tooth in each sequence. More detail can be found in the original patent for the direct injection trigger system which I have attached.
Neon Crank patent.pdf
(835.74 KiB) Downloaded 329 times

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by russian » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:39 pm

These numbers help a lot!

I will check the .pdf & see if it has a full description of the camshaft, too - the last missing piece is the angle of any of the camshaft events, the rest we can calculate based on the 210 and 150.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3407
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA
Contact:

Re: 1995 dodge neon

Post by kb1gtt » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:59 am

Good data. Do you happen to know if the OEM connector is an Tyco connector or something like that that can be purchased? If so I can probably make you a break out adapter, or perhaps even something that plugs into the OEM harness.

One issue to consider with hall, is that they often have internal automagic compensation circuits that create a certain amount of jitter. This jitter is something that needs to be accounted for primarily in software. Do you have a block diagram of the internals of the hall sensor? I believe many OEM sensors don't have this auto-compensation stuff, so less jitter. Then less controlled DIY stuff has it, as they have less control over the gaps, and material specs and such. A block diagram of the internals of the hall often can show what amount of jitter you can expect.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:06 pm

I'm not too worried about the harness interface, I think I will just use the bulkhead connector where the engine harness meets the chassis as my connection point. I have several spare harnesses around so its just a matter of defining what needs to move between the board and the engine bay then pulling wire.

All I have on the sensor so far is the factory part numbers- I'll keep digging for some actual manufacturer info

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:17 pm

Even if you personally do not need to use anything like the stock ECU connector, I guess at some point we would need a picture (ECU side and harness side) of it so that we can find where to get these connectors and claim that we have full Dodge Neon support.

But it looks like we are not exactly there yet, so these pictures and part numbers could wait :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Mad Max
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:34 pm
Location: Ukraine, Kharkov

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Mad Max » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:39 pm

We don't know exact angle of "high"-position. But according to Patent it's not 15 deg. It's exactly 12.28 deg.
Slot 28 (60deg) have 79,56 mm wide. Slot 22,24,26... (20deg) has 10,23 mm wide.
So between 20degslots we have 12,28 deg.

Also it's possible we have next camshaft correlation. Only difference is ignition at #1 or #4. I not found this info in Patent.
Cam switching is as follows:
60- cam goes high
270- cam goes low
420-cam goes high
570-cam goes low

Crank would be as follows:
112.28-crank goes high
120-low
132.28-high
140-low
152-high
160-low
172-high
180-low (#2,3 tdc)
240-high (#1,3 going up)
300-low
312-high
320-low
332-high
340-low
352-hihg
360-low (#1-4tdc)
472-high
480-low
492-high
500-low
515-high
520-low
535-high
540-low (#2-3 tdc)
600-high (#1,3 going up)
660-low
672-high
680-low
692-high
700-low
712-high
720-low (#1-3tdc)
Last edited by Mad Max on Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skype- max.mad486

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:10 pm

google translate for Mad Max:

Code: Select all

Regarding 15 degrees duration of the "high" phase - the drawings of the patent shows that the width of the slot and tooth "20" is different. Pat says that the length of the slot number 28 cavities (60 deg) = 79.56 mm and the groove between the teeth 20 degrees. 10,23 mm.
In total we have a corner "high" 12,28 degrees.
And he takes back his comment on the camshaft angles, it depends on where the starting point is.

I am just the messenger :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:49 pm

I will power the sensors on one of my spare motors and record actual observations this week-end.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:26 am

So I would suggest we measure the angles digitally.

Short version of the plan: program the firmware, wire up cam sensor to pin PC6 and crank sensor to PA5, start the dev console, see the tachometer showing the correct values & save the logs.

Longer version: 1) you would need to download the Neon version of the firmware - (link removed because it's outdated) - and program it into your discovery board as described at [urlhttp://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=283]Setting up the board with pre-compiled binaries[/url]

2) you would need to launch java development console

3) make sure that your position sensor wires have 5v and not 12v in them - either with a multimeter or by confirming with the manual. connect the wires to PC6 and PA5. Also connect GND to car ground. If the console reports 'noise' or if you see noisy (as in 'not solid') signals in the console - you would need a 103 capacitor between these signal pins and you ground pin

Once you got the console showing the correct RPMs, the log files which the console saves into 'out' folder would contain the full description of your position sensor signals, same information would be represented on the 'analog sniffer' pane of the console.

Image

That might be a lot of info to digest in one shot, get it touch with me if you are stuck on anything and we will work it out :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:06 am

Sorry for the slow progress guys- for some reason I had a much harder time getting the software loaded on my garage PC than my office one. Regardless I now have the utilities loaded, the neon.hex burned, the virtual com showing and the java console running. I was about to hook up to the car, however the factory drives the cam and crank sensor at 8 volts- not sure how much of an issue this is?

Regardless I decided to play it safe and shovel my megasquirt car out of the snow bank. Its currently -30 degrees Celsius and it has been sitting out there for a month or so, but with a little bit of effort I was able to start the megasquirt car and drive it into the garage. Good news for this project on 2 fronts, #1 it sets a nice cold start benchmark for this one, and #2 I now have a vehicle that drives sensors at 5 volts in the garage. I'm done for tonight but should be able to try and capture data in the next day or 2.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:01 pm

8 volts would be an issue, I believe you should not plug it to the discovery directly. Two options come to my non-EE mind - a resistor divider (two resistors and you connect in the middle) or an op-amp circuit which would limit the input to op-amp VCC which would be +5v
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:56 am

for ground to the car- does it matter which ground pin I use?

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:18 am

well I assumed the ground pins were all connected and just went for it... and it looks like I have some data. I did not get a clean rpm signal, but hopefully what I captured is of some use. This was taken at a cold fast idle. It is a start, run for a bit and a shutdown then the logger was stopped. Log file is attached
Attachments
rfi_report_2014-01-03 03_15.csv
neon first run with stm32f4
(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 482 times

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:07 pm

I am in the wilds right now so I am a bit slow on my responses

Anyway
time,75.420,ckp_c,139877,rpm,4948,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.51,vref,1.75,maf,1.65,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,94.32,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.427,ckp_c,139884,rpm,4948,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.51,vref,1.75,maf,1.64,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,94.32,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.433,ckp_c,139983,rpm,6521,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.51,vref,1.75,maf,1.58,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,94.32,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.440,ckp_c,139989,rpm,6521,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.51,vref,1.75,maf,1.63,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,94.32,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.445,ckp_c,140026,rpm,342857,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.51,vref,1.75,maf,1.60,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,94.32,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.453,ckp_c,140041,rpm,342857,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.67,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.458,ckp_c,140063,rpm,8321,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.61,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.464,ckp_c,140069,rpm,38834,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.62,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.471,ckp_c,140079,rpm,38834,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.60,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.477,ckp_c,140101,rpm,38834,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.61,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.484,ckp_c,140104,rpm,38834,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.61,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.489,ckp_c,140162,rpm,4573,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.62,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.496,ckp_c,140172,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.62,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.502,ckp_c,140195,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.64,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.509,ckp_c,140208,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.57,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.514,ckp_c,140218,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.61,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.521,ckp_c,140265,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.62,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.527,ckp_c,140271,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.65,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.533,ckp_c,140305,rpm,24640,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.60,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.540,ckp_c,140312,rpm,2872,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.69,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.545,ckp_c,140374,rpm,10160,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.90,vref,1.95,maf,1.64,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,84.85,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.553,ckp_c,140390,rpm,10160,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.98,vref,1.99,maf,1.64,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,83.03,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,75.558,ckp_c,140400,rpm,10160,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,12.98,vref,1.99,maf,1.60,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,83.03,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1479.61,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
These crazy RPM means signals are changing too fast which in our case looks like noise. What is your exact electrical configuration on this righ now? If that's just the naked wires can you put a '103' capacitor between the discovery signal pin and ground in order to eliminate the noise?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:13 pm

yes just wire right now, I'll see if I can purchse a caps for it

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:49 pm

Vanquizor wrote:for ground to the car- does it matter which ground pin I use?
All GND pins are the same
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:11 pm

Image

On this screenshot the top graph is the one used for RPM calculation. The black lines on the cyan blocks is what we need to eliminate - either with a capacitor or by running this via the op-amp circuit, both ways have worked for me with my seconds.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:56 pm

Here is a new log running it with a 103 cap on each signal input
Attachments
rfi_report_2014-01-04 16_53.csv
(1.18 MiB) Downloaded 489 times

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:21 pm

Image
This looks like crank signal, but it should be cam signal on this pin :)
Are you connecting cam to PC6 and crank to PA5?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:15 am

Here is a log cranking with no start.
Attachments
rfi_report_2014-01-04 18_09.csv
(885.85 KiB) Downloaded 492 times

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:27 am

Something is not right here :( We do not have a clear signal
time,64.955,ckp_c,126283,rpm,162,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,38.00,af,10.82,vref,0.91,maf,1.56,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,64.997,ckp_c,126359,rpm,162,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,38.00,af,10.82,vref,0.91,maf,1.61,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.002,ckp_c,126359,rpm,162,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,38.00,af,10.82,vref,0.91,maf,1.56,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.044,ckp_c,126449,rpm,0,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.82,vref,0.91,maf,1.63,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.081,ckp_c,126577,rpm,480000,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.81,vref,0.90,maf,1.62,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.108,ckp_c,126608,rpm,480000,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.81,vref,0.90,maf,1.59,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.113,ckp_c,126616,rpm,480000,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.81,vref,0.90,maf,1.58,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
wave_chart,crank!down!6413626!crank!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank2!down!6413626!crank2!up!6413626!crank!down!6413626!crank!up!6413626!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank2!down!6417171!crank2!up!6417171!crank!down!6417171!crank!up!6417171!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank2!down!6421019!crank2!up!6421019!crank!down!6421019!crank!up!6421019!crank!down!6424892!crank!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank2!down!6424892!crank2!up!6424892!crank!down!6424892!crank!up!6424892!,
time,65.124,ckp_c,126720,rpm,26431,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.81,vref,0.90,maf,1.57,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.130,ckp_c,126796,rpm,26431,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.81,vref,0.90,maf,1.59,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.137,ckp_c,126872,rpm,10647,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.81,vref,0.90,maf,1.60,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
time,65.142,ckp_c,126984,rpm,16783,idl,0,fuel_base,NaN,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,NaN,timing,NaN,af,10.75,vref,0.87,maf,1.62,MAP,NaN,TP,100,CLT,NaN,MAT,NaN,duty0,0.00,dwell0,0.00,period0,1480.66,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
I guess it's time for some pictures. Is this the car with the 5v setup? Hall sensors right?

You probably see that the 'digital sniffer' is not showing what we expected to see. For instance,
crank!down!6413626!crank!up!6413626!

this means "rise level on first wire @ 64136.26 ms and fall level at 64136.26 ms" - which means rise & fall are happening too close which means they are noise.

At this point I am not filtering any noise programmatically simply because I think this kind of noise should be taken care on the analog side and it works for me.

Has your analog board arrived by any chance? We can try inputting the signals via the amplifier as plan B.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by russian » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:40 am

russian wrote:Image
This looks like crank signal, but it should be cam signal on this pin :)
Are you connecting cam to PC6 and crank to PA5?
Assuming this pic has the wires swapped, it looks like crank signal is kinda OK but cam signal is not really there... Any differences between the way these signals are set up?

On the starting issue - having the discovery connected would get MS crazy. There is a chance that it would start without it but would NOT start with discovery. That's why DIY Hall input board
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Vanquizor
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by Vanquizor » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:55 am

well maybe I'll have to look at hall input board later. For now though my MS is not powering or connecting to the pc so I have some work to do

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3407
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA
Contact:

Re: 1995 Dodge Neon

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:13 am

This is certainly a noise issue, but it might be a different kind of noise from what you might expect. I seem to recall it was hall so 0-5V going direct to the STM. The OEM was a MS and this is in parallel. Most hall sensors can push a max of 5mA, so adding the second sensor in parallel, may exceed the sensors drive capabilities which can show as noise. Some sensors have thermal overloads, when they fire, it can look allot like noise. Also if this signal is piped to the MS, I would expect a no start condition. You typically want your hall sensor's max current to be around 5mA to 10mA max. Can you connect a multi-meter and measure the current when in the on position, and in the off position? Also do you have a scope? Can you show an analog snap shot of the cranks signal?

Hmmm, where is you pull up resistor relative to the STM? I'm assuming it's on the MS, and you have some fairly long wires to the STM from there. So your current loop doesn't include the STM. This may mean you have a high impedance, while hall is typically fairly low impedance.

Do you have pictures or a pencil sketch to share?
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

Post Reply