1995 Dodge Neon

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:52 pm

'll work on video today... I either need to grow a third hand or use foot for something.

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:53 pm

Vanquizor wrote:'ll work on video today... I either need to grow a third hand or use foot for something.

The foot options is probably more realistic

Want a video!

Stepping outside for a breakfast, but I am around.

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:34 pm

[video][/video]

log attached.

rus084 · Post by **rus084** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:50 pm

ie you have everything ready? something else is not enough ...

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:59 pm

It's dying by itself, is it? What do you think is missing?

I know that an engine can idle at static fuel and static timing if the values are right. How do we figure out if it wants more or less?

My 1.3 in sequential mode wants something about 3ms for fuel, should it be 4ms for yours just because yours is larger?

puff · Post by **puff** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:17 pm

it's only valid for certain type of injectors with the same level of wear and the same pressure in the fuel rail. besides, you need to consider air consumption + temperature. it could easily be that with the temperature difference of 15Cº the same fuel settings won't work…

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:18 pm

its still quite rich, I'm going to lean it out and get some fresh plugs while my battery charges. Can you confirm from the log if it is leaving cranking mode or if I need to bump down the cranking RPM?

Post by **AndreyB** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:22 pm

Yes, I can confirm that it exits cranking mode:

Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.375,rpm,277,maf,0.04,MAP,NaN,afr,9.09,vref,0.04,vbatt,0.13,TP,100.00,CLT,185.08,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,397,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.389,rpm,277,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,403,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.395,rpm,1021,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,404,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.402,rpm,1021,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,405,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.408,rpm,1021,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,406,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.416,rpm,1021,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,410,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,

and then

Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.598,rpm,968,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.10,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.13,TP,100.00,CLT,182.49,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,468,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,92.85,dwell0,51.97,period0,55.97,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.619,rpm,1239,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.10,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.13,TP,100.00,CLT,182.49,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,477,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,77.29,dwell0,43.27,period0,55.97,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.725,rpm,1239,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.10,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,185.53,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,511,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,93.36,dwell0,56.33,period0,60.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.731,rpm,1037,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.10,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,185.53,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,512,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,93.36,dwell0,56.33,period0,60.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,

puff · Post by **puff** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:28 pm

what was that in bold?
besides, what's that 3 stands for?
should it be the same in both rpm ranges?

Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.375,rpm,277,maf,0.04,MAP,NaN,afr,9.09,vref,0.04,vbatt,0.13,TP,100.00,CLT,185.08,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,397,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,msg,crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: crankingFuel=6.00000 for CLT=185.08557C
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.389,rpm,277,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,403,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014: time,152.395,rpm,1021,maf,0.05,MAP,NaN,afr,9.11,vref,0.05,vbatt,0.14,TP,100.00,CLT,184.64,MAT,NaN,ckp_c,404,fuel_base,3.00,fuel_iat,1.00,fuel_clt,1.00,fuel_lag,0.00,fuel,3.00,timing,264.00,duty0,96.88,dwell0,197.97,period0,204.33,duty1,NaN,dwell1,0.00,period1,0.00,
Sun Apr 06 11:27:13 CST 2014:

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:31 pm

well I seem to recall Jared being concerned about the life expectancy of my 5v source... sadly today was the day. RIP magic bullet charger...

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:46 pm

hmmm... this R&D work is getting expensive. Back at it now though.

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:14 pm

I have convinced myself we are getting multiple or incorrectly timed ignition events based on what I am seeing in my timing light. Also if we only had 1 ignition event I wouldn't get backfires until I was off by more than 50 degrees or so. Is there any way we can log the high energy coil side of the ignition modules to see if actual spark delivery aligns with the requests for spark?

I played with my MS car intentionally throwing the cranking ignition and fuel values off and I can't get it to mimic what I am experiencing in trying to get this motor to start/run.

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:58 pm

There are currently no real ways to sense the high voltage. I have a prototype board, but it's still in development, and not ready for prime time yet.

Hmmm, could you connect an LED with resistor to the LD60X pin? I wonder if you might see the LED blink multiple times or something like that.

Post by **AndreyB** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:35 am

I've just changed the firmware that it would start printing ignitionOffset with 'showconfig', do you remember your setting? Did you change it?

Can you please attach more logs?

I still need your current logs, but I would also ask you to take another log with the latest version:

1) update firmware
2) type disable_injection (note: this command does not save itself to configuration, you would need to re-disable after each MCU reset)
3) crank it a bit

I need injection disabled via the console and not with just wires so that injection output does happen and it does not pollute the digital sniffer page.

Post by **AndreyB** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:06 pm

I've updated java console - it now has a log browsing tab, you can open older log and scroll between digital sniffing charts.

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:24 pm

russian wrote:I've just changed the firmware that it would start printing ignitionOffset with 'showconfig', do you remember your setting? Did you change it?

Can you please attach more logs?

I still need your current logs, but I would also ask you to take another log with the latest version:

1) update firmware
2) type disable_injection (note: this command does not save itself to configuration, you would need to re-disable after each MCU reset)
3) crank it a bit

I need injection disabled via the console and not with just wires so that injection output does happen and it does not pollute the digital sniffer page.

Sadly being a Monday I had to go to work today, but when I get home I will run the update and pull a log as described.

I did not change the ignition timing directly, just worked with the global offset value. (something like 427 with the coils inverted seem to be best, but it is not really sensitive +- 5 or so.) We should probably look farther into why a change of 5 in this value creates a 10 crank degree change in ignition timing. I'd like to try something like 337 without the coils inverted and see how it likes that.

Where I am having most success is Setting cranking fuel to value in the 4-6 range, playing with the global fuel table doesn't seem to have much of an effect. The only time I get the coughing to life and plodding along is when I have a highly choked air intake and very rich conditions. When I crack the throttle or pull a vacuum line to let it breathe it seems to crank without lighting. Also when I lean out the fuel I see the same observation.

Post by **AndreyB** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:47 pm

Monday and work in general is totally in the way

Anyway, I think I've fixed the "5/10" bug - the global offset was used twice. I think I have improved timing precision, too. The issue was about how events are scheduled in case of changing RPM - that's why it looks perfect with constant RPM on a bench. Either my engine spins slower or it's just more tolerant to that.

BTW this means you should try putting #1/#4 spark wire where it should be and start from the default hard-coded angles in dodge_neon.c

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:10 pm

If we think that there is an issue with cranking fuel, can we get it started on starter fluid? Basically disable the cranking fuel, such that it only has fuel for idle, then prime it with some starter fluid. Once it working, we can tune the starting fuel.

Do we know the fuel rates of the injectors? We could make some better predictions if we know some general specs.

Post by **AndreyB** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:38 pm

It looks like the issue is mostly about timing - timing was too precise while fast RPM change. I've just validated current version - it still starts & runs my car, hopefully with the latest improvements it would also starts & run the Neon.

This dodge trigger has 18 teeth. Any event which takes place not at one of the 36 trigger points (18 falls + 18 rises) has to be planned as happening X amount of time after some tooth event. In order to calculate this X as amount of time based on angle A, we need to know RPM. The trick is that RPM is changing over time, so if for example you calculate RPM based on the duration of last full revolution (from #0 to next #0) that's one RPM, and then if you try to calculate RPM as time between current tooth and previous invocation of the same tooth, that's a different RPM. If you try to calculate RPM based on current tooth time and previous tooth time, that's another RPM. Some values are easier to implement in code, some values give better precision. Some values would require exact wheel measurements etc etc etc. I believe that I've improved this area today and I hope that this would make the dodge much happier.

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:13 am

ok here is a log with new firmware and injection disabled. Interestingly my attempt to determine where the ignition timing was at now that we are running new firmware and the coils have been returned to normal failed. The timing light is not picking up ignition events on either coil... I am investigating.

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:19 am

not sure what the wierdness was but a check of my connections and a reset of the timing light and I am picking up spark... actually lots of spark events unfortunately they still don't appear to all be at the same crankshaft timing. I'll try and shoot video and see if it works out.

kb1gtt · Post by **kb1gtt** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:25 am

I tend to think current RPM should be based on the last 10 degrees or so of crank angle. So average something like 3 or 4 falling edges to get the RPM. I also tend to think the most recent time should be heavily weighted, say 1/2 of the final result is the current measure, then 1/4 is the the second, then 1/8 for the next then the last is the final 1/8.

Does that many any sense?

Post by **AndreyB** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:45 am

Can you please take this PA8-PE8, or PA8-what-ever-it-is wire away for now?

Also I think disable_injection did not work or maybe you have reset it afterwords? You see how we still have the bars on the lower four rows - with disable_injection I am expecting not to see these lines there.

Also what I see in the log is kind of promising if you are me in terms of spark stability:

Mon Apr 07 18:15:26 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10380438
Mon Apr 07 18:15:26 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 123 123.34703
Mon Apr 07 18:15:26 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10398770
Mon Apr 07 18:15:26 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 467 467.62197
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10417828
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 129 129.57923
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10436356
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 487 487.54019
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10455709
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 125 125.91336
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10474431
Mon Apr 07 18:15:27 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 480 480.88247
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10493949
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 126 126.47292
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10512732
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 480 480.34466
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10532195
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 125 125.93867
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10551003
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 479 479.15289
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10570635
Mon Apr 07 18:15:28 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 126 126.60335
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10589395
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 477 477.79055
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10608870
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 125 125.84477
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10627608
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 477 477.74438
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10647062
Mon Apr 07 18:15:29 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 126 126.24684
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10665796
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 479 479.19543
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10685424
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 126 126.80255
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10704234
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 480 480.05432
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10723776
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 125 125.34912
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10742562
Mon Apr 07 18:15:30 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 477 477.02304
Mon Apr 07 18:15:31 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark up12 10762054
Mon Apr 07 18:15:31 CST 2014: postMessage EngineState: spark angle 125 125.20625

it's always around 125 degrees and 475 degrees. Different question why it is not around 340 and 700 where I would want to see it so I guess we need to shift using set_global_trigger_offset_angle but it looks as it should be fine. I guess it is not, but we are really close

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:56 am

I entirely agree we are requesting ignition consistently, but that's not what we are getting. Hopefully this video helps. You will note the strobe shows the timing mark directly below the motor mount bolt, close to where it should be, and also illuminates the damper opposite the timing mark. The timing light uses an inductive pickup on the #1 plug wire and its not particularly sensitive (no flash at all if not positioned perfect)so I believe it fairly reflects when that plug is actually firing.
[video][/video]

Post by **AndreyB** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:24 am

I'm not getting it

what timemark would show the opposite mark?

If you think we are getting twice the needed spark, can u try set ignition mode 1 so that is twice less activity in this wire?

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:46 am

tougher to see in the video than in person, maybe these will help- Ignition mode 1 seemed to slow the strobe but not change what I am seeing.

I'm seeing timing flash in these positions (approximately):

Post by **AndreyB** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:25 am

plz attach a couple more logs, I would stare at them tomorrow maybe I would get it

Post by **AndreyB** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:52 am

btw did you try it wil fuel today?

I wonder if we can disconnect #2 and #3 spark wires or coil to be 146% posirive we are not picking the other spark. If we have a second spark at the opposite 180 degres spot its the time of the opposite spark. I wonder if somehow we are getting 2nd coil mixed in with 1st. Timorrow i will add a command to disable 2nd coil altogether, just curious if that would change anything

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:26 am

I thought of that- unplugging the ignitor and second coil feed had no effect. I have not put fuel to it tonight... but just for you I'll grab another log with an without fuel

Vanquizor · Post by **Vanquizor** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:31 am

it is so close- actually improved from yesterday. maybe I'll play with it a bit with fuel

rusefi.com

[rusEfi] 1995 Dodge Neon

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