1995 Ford E-150

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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E4ODnut
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1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:42 am

I've attached some documentation on the Ford ignition systems. What I am using is the TFI "push start" flavor which does it's own dwell control, as opposed to the Computer Controlled Dwell model. It's pretty simple really. The Profile Ignition Pickup Hall Sensor signal is 12 volt square wave 50% duty cycle. The signal is fed to the ECU and the TFI module. Static timing is 10 degrees BTDC. Strategy is "next cylinder". If the TFI module doesn't see a SParkOUTput signal from the ECU (12 volt square wave 50% duty cycle) by the time a new PIP signal is received it fires the spark on PIP (10 degrees) for "limp home" mode.

If you like I can send you my code but it's for the HC908 and written in assembler.

The fuel strategy I am using is speed density, alternate bank fired on every ignition event, Hi Z injectors.

I've been going through the "hardware" posts to see what I'm going to need in that department but I'm not sure if there is a current BOM or not. Perhaps you could clarify this for me. I have an account with Digikey and their Canadian service is second to none.

See also E-150 Sensors.xls
Attachments
Ignition.doc
(276.5 KiB) Downloaded 385 times
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: Hello All

Post by russian » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:14 am

I was thinking to begin with just the tachometer functionality, so you say the Hall sensors outputs a 50% wave. How many waves per crankshaft or camshaft revolution and how does it know where TDC is? If it does know which rise or fall is TDC.

It is still a little bit of a mess with knowledge management here. I've updated the first post of the Shopping list thread.

Think is we are pretty close to get a first batch of Frankenstein PCBs - and that would be a major simplification of hardware management, one IO board instead of 4 individual modules. How about you just get the discovery board & the analog input board to start playing with all this with a simulator, and maybe wait for the Frankenstein to happen for actual engine control? The analog board thread has a BOM and Oshpark links right on top of the first post.

Up to you :)
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Re: Hello All

Post by E4ODnut » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:41 am

OK. It gets really simple because the signal comes from the distributor, not the crank shaft. The signal tells the ECU and the TFI module when a cylinder is at 10 degrees BTDC on compression. The PIP signal has a rising edge at base timing, usually set at 10 degrees BTDC. In the case of this six cylinder engine there are 3 ignition events per crank shaft revolution. The strategy is to get a time stamp when the PIP signal arrives and delay the SPOUT signal for the appropriate angle for the next cylinder to fire. The TFI module fires the coil on the rising edge of the SPOUT signal. Falling edges of both PIP and SPOUT are not used. The TFI module itself takes care of dwell. The distributor routes the spark to the appropriate cylinder. Relatively stone age perhaps, but it works very well.

6 pulses per cam (distributor) revolution, 3 pulses per crank revolution. 1 cam revolution per engine cycle, 2 crank revolutions per engine cycle.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: Hello All

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:27 am

Hello and welcome along.

Is the PIP signal 0-5V? What is the peak voltage you expect to see from that signal?
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

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Re: Hello All

Post by E4ODnut » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:58 pm

Jared,
Nope, PIP is zero to nominal 12. System voltage, could be up to 15 or so depending on how well the alternator is regulated. Also, it could be down to 8 or less under crank conditions with a low battery.

Andrey,
Got the BOM, Thanks.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: Hello All

Post by russian » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:09 pm

E4ODnut wrote:PIP is zero to nominal 12.
I guess if we use op-amp protected channels for this we are going to be fine - the op-amp would only output up to +5 VCC rail? No need for the VR chip here? Would this work?
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Re: Hello All

Post by E4ODnut » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:23 pm

The PIP input circuit I am using is just a slight adaptation from the original MS1 tach input signal. The PIP input goes through a 1080R resistor to pin 1 of a 4N25 opto isolator. Pin 2 of the isolator goes to ground. Across pins 1 and 2 is a 0.001 cap. That's it. Works just fine.

Analog board has been ordered as well as the BOM for the board and Discovery.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:01 am

So, we have three 50% waves from Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) for each crankshaft revolution - that's because we have wasted spark here (do we?)

What about "Camshaft Position Sensor... The CMP sensor is, however, used by the PCM to determine cylinder #1 for sequential fuel control. If the PCM cannot figure out which cylinder is #1 because the CMP signal is missing or not timed properly, it will try to synch up for 5 seconds, and then go into sequential firing calling the next cylinder that comes up cylinder #1, whether it is or not....There are two types of CMP sensors being utilized, a Hall Effect Sensor and a Variable Reluctance Sensor. "

Which CMP do you have? Please tell me it's Hall :)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:00 am

Nope. No wasted spark. One coil and a distributor.

The PIP signal comes from a hall effect sensor in the distributor. So, I suppose it could be classified as a Camshaft Position Sensor.

The PCM doesn't know or care what cylinder is about to fire. The distributor takes care of that. All the PCM has to do is calculate the appropriate delay time from PIP to SPOUT for the next cylinder.

Simply put, the way my TFI code runs is:

I have a free running timer. The PIP signal is connected to the IRQ (highest priority) pin on the ECU. When PIP goes high the interrupt is triggered indicating a cylinder is at 10 degrees BTDC on compression. I grab a time stamp from the timer. The ignition calculation deducts the calculated delay time from the PIP period and sets the timer output compare value. When that output compare value comes up the ECU pulls SPOUT high which fires the coil.

The delay time is always less than the PIP period. As I mentioned before, one of the neat things about the TFI module is that for any reason it doesn't receive a SPOUT signal, it will fire the coil on PIP (limp home). The other neat thing is that it takes care of dwell. I have no idea how it does it, but it appears to do it well because I always have dependable spark and have never lost a coil, so we don't have to concern ourselves with dwell.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:53 am

Right, with a distributor we just need to fire the spark and the rotor would find the right cylinder, electronics is not invoked with that.

But how does fuel injection works? Unless it is injection fuel into all cylinders simultaneously it needs a way to detect which cylinder we are at. How does it do it?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:34 pm

Fuel is all basic batch fired MS stuff. Similar to the original Bosch systems of the '80s. The Ford OEM strategy is to fire the injectors in banks of 3 alternately once every crankshaft revolution. There is no attempt to synchronize anything. The options I have with a 6 cylinder 4 stroke engine are:

Firing all 6 injectors together once every 720 degrees of crank rotation (every 6th ignition event).
Firing all 6 injectors together once every 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation (every 3d ignition event).
Firing all 6 injectors together once every 240 degrees of crankshaft rotation (every second ignition event).
Firing all 6 injectors together once every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation (every ignition event).
or
Firing injectors in banks of 3 alternately once every 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation (every 3d ignition event)(OEM).
Firing injectors in banks of 3 alternately once every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation (every ignition event).

The logic in firing in alternating banks is to reduce fuel rail pulsing. By experiment I seem to have the best success firing in banks of 3 alternating once every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation. My idle pulse widths are not so small that injector dead time becomes a major tuning issue and there is no problem with WOT duty cycle.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Am I right that the reason for this batch injection is that your MCU doesn't know the camshaft position? BTW, what are the changes in engine's behavior when you change these injection scheduling?

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:39 pm

I suppose because the ignition pick up is in the distributor the ECU does know camshaft position, but with a very coarse resolution and that's all it knows. There is no crank position information.

Why batch? Don't know really, but the history of EFI seems to be that it was used first, probably because it's simplest and works well. I am under the impression that the main reason to use sequential is more for emissions control reasons. Idle quality may be a bit better, but performance gains are probably small. I'm not saying that sequential or even semi sequential doesn't have advantages over batch, but in order to take advantage of more precise fuel metering and timing you have to be able to tune it. Dyno tuning is really the best way and that can get prohibitively expensive more most people. I tune on the road, or on the water as the case may be, so I might not be able to take advantage of the extra precision available to me.

With the E-150 I found tuning idle to be easier injecting alternately on every ignition event as opposed to injecting alternately once every crankshaft resolution like the OEM does. I have no idea why.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:49 pm

I see. Sounds reasonable. Last question for now - what about regulations and compliance issues? how do you deal with the police and MOT officers (or how is it called in Canada?)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:41 pm

E4ODnut wrote:I don't doubt that I'll have lots of questions before that is done though.
I'd recommend installing http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9#p477 first and then reading the whole thread - command line compiler first (simple and better-documented) and them maybe full-scale IDE (Eclipse CDT + arm plugin)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 am

If you are referring to the "for off road vehicles only" disclaimer, it's simply not an issue where I live. We don't have mandatory vehicle inspections for emissions. In reality I think that for once at least, reason has prevailed. The percentage of people who run programmable EFI are very few, and those that do probably know a lot more about their vehicle than the average dealer mechanic. So, if the programmable EFI vehicle does not quite meet all current emissions standards, it probably runs a lot better than the thousands of "nearing end of life" vehicles that are struggling along in "limp home " mode. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Thanks for the tip on the command line compiler.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:50 am

Robert, I believe you are not confused enough yet, so here some new stuff:
I've added the trigger simulation code for your engine, you can activate it by executing
set_engine_type 7
command in the java console utility

Here is a "manual" on how to do all this
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... ngine_Type

If you crack my Russian manual, invoke the command, reset the board and jump the wires you should see something like
Image
Believe it or not, that's your trigger signal - six 50% waves per 720 degrees of the crank shaft.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:18 am

Andrey,
HaHa! I like your attitude. Unfortunately I've become quite busy with work related stuff (have to finance my bad habits) but I should be able to get back into the fun stuff on the week end.

Thanks for your efforts to date, much appreciated.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:41 pm

Andrey,
Oh Boy! I'm, completely out of my element here and way over my depth, but I've made a start. I haven't got a clue what all this stuff is or what it does, so I'm just blindly following instructions.

I think I have Sourcery CodeBench Lite for ARM EABI and Cygwin installed correctly. When I check the validation in the windows command prompt typing "arm-none-eabi-gcc -v" it returns a long list starting with "Using built in specs" and ending with "gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11.24)".

When I type in "make -v" it returns "gnu make 3.81 copyright (C) 2006 etc etc etc".

I'm not clear on the "path" thing. I downloaded the path editor you mentioned, ran it, selected "Automatic" and "Save". I have no idea if it was required or if it did anything useful.

I think I have Eclipes IDE for C/C++ Developers and the Eclipse ARM plug in installed.

I was able to download and install Tortoise. I created a folder in "My Documents" called "rusEFI" and it looks like Tortoise was able to load a whole bunch of stuff under a folder it created called "code".

Now my head hurts and I need some direction as to what to do next.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:00 pm

it would start to make sence soon i promise

Open rusefi.com and follow the 'firmware' link - i want you to recreate the picture with two cables and a wire on your desk, and get the java console connected and reading the signal.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:32 pm

I have discovery connected with the min-USB and the STM32 ST-Link utility running. I am able to load your hex file but can't connect to Discovery.

Is there a jumper of some sort that should be open or closed?

EDIT. I thought I had the driver installed but apparently not. I did a driver search and Windows installed it. I was able to load your hex and Discovery is merrily blinking the blue LED. I'll keep working on this.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:02 pm

Andrey,
I have Discovery running and connected to your Java console
I have my jumper set between PD1 and PC6.
The output on the screen of the utility is the same as you show except I am showing 1203 RPM.

This is fun!
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:27 pm

Image

I have cleaned up the code related to trigger decoding & added some default spark initialization. I am not sure how readable this all is, but here is a link to the configuration code.

Oh, and the code documentation in general is here.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - my skype is arro239 - "Electronically challenged of the world, unite!"

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:20 pm

Andrey,
OK, I'm back, but It looks like I have forgotten a lot of what I've learned already.

I would like to load the latest Hex file for my engine into Discovery and view it on the consol but I'm not clear on how to do this.

We could do it a couple of ways. You could just point me to where I can download the file and I can load it (if I can remember how).

Or, what I would prefer to do would be able to download the complete current code and compile it, then load the hex file. This would get me familiar with the IDE so I'm not just blindly following instructions.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to give me some very basic step by step instructions on how I can do this though.

I got notice that the analog boards have been shipped.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:33 pm

Not a problem, I appreciate that you are still interested & ready to spend time playing with all this. I need you more then you need me, so we should be fine :)

1) http://rusefi.com/
2) click 'Manual:Software'
3)
Once you get the brain board, you would need to 'program' it with the rusEfi firmware 'binary' file - more about that here
- click on 'here' link
4)
There were no releases yet - all the changes to the source code are automatically compiled and available at our build_server folder.
- clink on the 'build_server' link - that's where you can get the latest binaries. You would need to update the firmware but you might also want to update the console.

As for compiling the links you are looking for are at http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title= ... code_intro

I suggest that for now you use anything, Eclipse preferable, for source code browsing - while compiling just from the command line. Fully integrated IDE setup is a bit messy and not properly documented yet (part of the reason we need to migrate to a newer version of the ARM plugin so it's not worth documenting the old toolchain but I do not have the time to figure out the new toolchain)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - my skype is arro239 - "Electronically challenged of the world, unite!"

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:54 pm

In the "Build Server" we have "rusefi consol .jar" and "rusefi firmware .zip". I'm assuming that both of these are updated periodically, so if that's true, where would you suggest that I create folders for them?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:57 pm

Does not really matter where you put them. Firmware - does not matter at all since you will download, program and forget.

jar - the console - matters a bit but not much. You download it and you start it. Only thing it would create an 'out' folder and write some logs into it - but that's not yet important.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - my skype is arro239 - "Electronically challenged of the world, unite!"

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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:05 pm

I deleted my previous version of the consol and all firm ware.

I've downloaded the latest version of the consol to my "Downloads" folder, where it shall reside. I've created a shortcut to it on the desktop.

I've downloaded the latest firmware.zip and unzipped it to a folder (rusEFI) that I've created in "my Documents" for all things rusefi. The .zip file contained 3 files, rusefi.elf, rusefi.hex, and rusefi. rusefi looks like it is a configuration file for Tuner Studio. I assume that rusefi.hex is the latest source code hex file. What is rusefi.elf?

Using the STM32 ST-Link Utility I have no difficulty in loading rusefi.hex into Discovery. If I open the consol and type "set_engine_type 7" in the message window the screen displays RPM @~1200, an input signal and an output signal.

So far so good.

Now, when I try to use Tortoise to load the firmware from source forge into my "rusEFI" folder, it is asking me for a password. I recall having to use a password before but I can't recall what it is or where I got it from.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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russian
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by russian » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:31 pm

rusefi.elf is a version of rusefi.hex for lazy unix users, if you are using windows just ignore it. I should probably remove it from the bundle since the lazy unix users have learned how to convert rusefi.hex to rusefi.elf or something like that.

SVN should not be asking you for a password, I am not sure why it does. Try checking out stuff into a new folder? Try checking out from http://svn.code.sf.net/p/rusefi/code/trunk/ (http not https) - something this changes SVN behavior.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - my skype is arro239 - "Electronically challenged of the world, unite!"

E4ODnut
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Location: Gibsons, BC, Canada
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:17 am

If I use the https site Tortoise asks me for a user name and password. If I use the http site Tortoise gives me this error

POST of '/p/rusefi/code/!svn/me': 403 Forbidden (http://svn.code.sf.net)

What is the step by step procedure you use to download it with Tortoise?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)

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