1995 Ford E-150

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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Sure, good point.

Realistically CLT and TPS is not low priority, what we need most is to try the trigger signal decoding - the rest can wait.

Power up the board - it should be ZERO at W211 pin, the one we are going to jump to PC6. Put +5 to the INP11 - you are looking to get 2.5 (we are diving everything by two) on the W211. Once this test passes let's forget about CLT and TPS for now and see how trigger input would work in real life.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

Yes remove the pull up R310 resistor from input 11, then you should be able to connect the 8-12V hall direct to the input. Even if you didn't remove the resistor, it would only dump an extra 2.5mA into the 5V rail, so probably not the end of the world.

Good to hear LED is flipped and working.

Do you have a schematic of your hall circuit? I'm wondering if I can verify where and if it has a pull up resistor. On occasion they have a pull down resistor instead of a pull up. Often the hall sensor is just a switch to GND, and the pull up is on the board. A schematic or perhaps a part number would help me make sure everything is on the up and up.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

R310 has been removed.

Discovery is plugged into the analog board so that pins 1,2 and 5 of header P201 connect to ground pins on Discovery and pin 10 (out11) and connects to PC2 on Discovery.

With 5 volts supply from Discovery (actual measurement 4.32 volts) connected to a terminal on analog board P202 and to pin 2 (inp 11) on P209 I read 1.86 volts on the W211 pin that connects to R314 and R315.

On the W211 pin that connects to out 11 and Discovery pin PC2 I read 2.922 volts. I assume that pin is configured as an input and that is the pull up voltage.

I can't supply you with the schematic for the PIP output from the TFI module because It's al part of the module and is proprietary to Ford, as far as I know anyway. What I can do is take a screen shot of the 555 timer circuit I'm using to simulate it as well as the hall circuit I use on the boat engines if that would help.

Remember, this signal is system voltage, so it can be as high as about 15 volts under normal operating conditions.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

plus possible voltage spikes..
If I were you I'd use an optocoupler for that purpose.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

russian wrote:the one we are going to jump to PC6.
PC2 - the one on the 10x2 header - would not be used here. We are adding a jumper wire from the resistor side of W211 to PC6. PC6 is an event capture pin as opposed to analog input pins on the 10x2 header. We need an event input pin so we are using the analog board to prepare the electrical signal, but the processing is taken care by a pin which is not connected to the analog board.

What is the voltage on both ends of R314? What is the voltage on R313? Technically it should be closer to 4.32 / 2 = 2.16, but I know nothing about electronics.

Once we have the resistor side of W211 connected to PC6 we can give it a try on the real trigger signal, if you feel like doing that :)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Voltages to ground:
R312 in = 4.33
R312 out = 4.33
R313 in = 4.31
R313 out = 4.31
R314 in = 3.736
R314 out = 1.866
W211 = 1.866

I'm game to try anything.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

W211 to PC6, GND to vehicle GND, INP11 to your hall sensor wire.

As a result, I am looking for a picture along these lines:
Image
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Here we go.
Simulator voltage was set to 11.95 volts. Frequency for the RPM signal was set to 51.36 hz. Voltage to ground on the RPM signal pin is 5.41 volts DC according to my Fluke 87 True RMS DVOM. Voltage at PC6 is 0.979, frequency is 51.36 hz. For a 6 cylinder 4 stroke engine this should relate to 1027 RPM

I have a Velleman HPS 10 personal digital scope, but I use it so seldom that every time I pick it up the learning process starts again. It indicates a nice clean square wave but I didn't bother to try figure out what the period or peak voltage is.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I had another look at the console while running and I noticed that it is reporting an "on time" of ~9.5 ms. At 50% duty cycle this relates to a period of ~19.7 ms, which relates to ~52 hz which is ~1052 RPM.

Looks like you're on the right track Andrey.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

So the perfect picture comes from a bench test, not an actual engine?

And the RPM value is off, is it? You are saying 263 while it should be 1052?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Bench test on simulator only. When everything checks out on the bench then I'll try it on the engine.

RPM appears to be off by a factor of 4. If the frequency is 52 hz there will be 52 x 60 = 3120 pulses per minute. At 3 pulses per revolution the RPM will be 3120 / 3 = 1040. It's hard to set an exact frequency with the 555 timer and it tends to drift a bit, but it's good enough for testing purposes. I've noticed that on real engines the period between ignition events varies a bit as well so the calculated RPM tends to be jittery by a few digits at low revs and getting worse as revs climb. It's not enough to cause tuning problems but in order to get a relatively steady tach read out the readings have to be averaged a bit. Perhaps there is a better way.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

By the way the green vertical lines are boundaries of CAMshaft revolution cycle.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

How's this?

Frequency was ~ 51.8 hz., should work out to ~1036 RPM.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

1076 equals 1036 to me.

The big question how's this for YOU - I am dying to see how this circuitry would handle the real signal as on a real vehicle :)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I'm curious as to why we have this difference between indicated and calculated RPM.

As for checking it in vehicle that presents a bit of a problem at the moment because so far I am only using my desk top PC running Win 7 Home edition. The laptop I use for MS tuning is an old IBM Think Pad running XP. It's a real good machine for this because it still has a serial port. I have a newer Lenovo Think Pad Edge that came with Win 7 Pro but I wiped it and installed Ubuntu with the intention of using it for FreeEMS/LibreEMS.

Which machine would be preferable and what is the minimum amount of stuff I would have to install to be able to get the information you want? I rarely connect the XP machine to the internet and it has no anti virus program on it.

Then there is the question of power supply for Discovery and the analog board. What do you have in mind for that?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

The laptop which you can see on some of the videos runs XP, there is nothing wrong with XP and it's totally an option, I would guess that it would be easier to use the XP laptop.

You would need the ST serial-over-USB driver - you already have it on your Win7, see http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:User/en for a link
You would need java 7, 32 bit you use for TunerStudio should be fine.
And you would need the java console file from http://rusefi.com/build_server/
I think that's it.

Your mini USB cable would be powering the discovery which would would in turn power the analog board with a wire (red works best) you would jump to +5 terminal.
Your micro USB would be for console data transfer.

You would not need the ST Link utility since you already have the firmware in the discovery.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

I haven't done the software bits of this yet. I tasking myself with doing it and updating the wiki. However I don't know when I'll be able to do it. So fingers crossed that I get fired and have some time on my hands :)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by hasse.69 »

Where ever you are employeed they must be nuts if they would fire you. :)
Just my 2 cents.
On the other hand it would be of great value for us ;)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I have Java JRE6 on the XP machine which works fine for the version of Tuner Studio that I have. Do I absolutely need JRE7 for rusEFI?. I hesitate to change anything because I spent literally months modifying the TS .ini file to work with my modified MS and I don't want to lose that.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Yes, you absolutely need to have java 7 to run the console.

You should backup the .ini file if that's valuable, but I just to not see what could happen to an .ini file with a JRE update. Worst case scenario you would un-install java 7 and re-install java 6.

I run TS with the same java 7 I use for the console and it works as a charm.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Here you go. Connected to engine, system voltage ~14.23.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

looks nice! congrats!
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Can you please email me the log file? It's in 'out' folder next to the console .jar file - file name contains console launch date & time.

Without zooming in this looks as it just works? That's too good to be true. Something should be wrong somewhere...

Q: what do we do next? Assuming we have trigger taken care of, I assume we need a sensor for engine load - VAF/MAF/MAP/TPS, which one do you have?

Do you have one of the injector boards? I've just added a 12 ch version to my oshpark profile, a 6ch is another option. Or the Frankenstein.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

That machine is not set up for e-mail so I'll have to do a bit of fiddling to get the file to you.

Analog inputs (0-5v):
Battery voltage - for injector dead time correction and other things (through voltage divider)
Manifold Absolute Pressure - to indicate engine load for fueling equations
Barometric Pressure - for fueling equations altitude correction
Engine Coolant Temperature - for fueling equations
Manifold Air Temperature - for fueling equations
Throttle Position Sensor - for acceleration enrichments
Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor - for tuning information
Fuel/Ignition Trim - for real time trim of ignition timing or fuel pulse width depending on state of selector switch

Input capture inputs (system voltage):

Profile Ignition Pickup - ignition trigger for just about everything
Vehicle Speed Sensor - for fuel burn calculations
Ignition Diagnostic Monitor - for confirmation of commanded spark angle

Digital Inputs:
Fuel/ignition trim select - to select if potentiometer ADC is for fuel or ignition trim
Decel Fuel Cut - for manual injector cut during deceleration

Digital Outputs:
Fuel Pump Relay - for fuel pump operation
Accumulated Injector On Time - TTL logic to external counter to calculate fuel burn between fill ups
SParkOUTput - commanded ignition timing

PWM outputs:
INJ1 - injector channel 1
INJ2 - injector channel 2

I have more I/Os on the system for the boat engines, but because the E-150 will be the test bed we'll restrict things to this list for now

No injector board at this time. My thoughts were to defer that until all inputs were figured out, then probably get a Frankenstein.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Sounds like a plan
Let's begin with
#1 CLT. Need info on your sensor. Is it the usual pull-down thermistor? If so I would need three resistance values at three temperatures.
#2 IAT. Same
#3 MAP. Need at least the part number or the coefficients if you have them
#4 Barometric - the same
#5 TPS - if that's the usual type, need 0% and 100% voltages

If MAP, Barometric and TPS are the usual 0-5v kinds you can start the wiring side:
TPS channel #2
MAP channel #6
BAR channel #7

I will put a bit more details on the wiki and let you know.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

How's this for a start?
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E-150 Sensors.xls
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:How's this for a start?
That's a good start!
Only thing: temperature sensors, what happens below 10C? I am pretty sure that you have at least one month each year below 10C, don't you?

I am planning to use the fancy equation which would be based off three point, so ideally I would need -20C, 60C & 120C
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Oh yes, it can drop to -10C sometimes, but not very often, thank goodness.

That information came from my Ford manual, here's the table that MS uses for the 8 bit ADC.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

So this file was generated based on three point - same Steinhart-Hart approach
http://rusefi.com/articles/measuring_temperature/Steinhart-Hart.shtml

Code: Select all

; Input Data:	Temp, degF	Resistance
;		    50		   58750
;		   104		   16150
;		   212		    2070
With such input data I believe that the values below 50F are not really accurate, the left and right input points have to be on the edges of the range. Obviously I can be wrong and you should not trust me.

What would you say about putting your sensor into a freezer for a night? That's if you have some kind of a thermometer, maybe an IR gun?

I hope Jared would explain why they suggest 22K bias resistor...
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

This might shed some light on the bias resistor.

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mwire.htm#clt

Yes, it would be interesting to measure the resistance at a lower temperature than the Ford manual states. I'll see if I can do the freezer thing, but it might be a few days before I can.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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