1995 Ford E-150

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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I just did a bit of searching and found a table that extended the lower range a bit.

0C, 32F, 3.91v, 95.85k
-10C, 14F, 4.15v, 160.31k

For what it's worth, on occasion I've checked the indicated temperatures for coolant and manifold air on a cold engine against outside ambient at around the freezing mark and normal summer temperatures and everything agrees within a few degrees. I suspect that if the table is out, it is not out much.

EDIT -correct typo, add voltage numbers.

Using 248, 140 and 50 in the calculator the numbers work out very close to the Ford table, better than the MS table.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I destroyed U201 so inputs 1 through 4 are no longer available to me. Can you make a firmware change so I can put TPS someplace on U202 or U203?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Did you destroy something on the PCB or just the op-amp chip? Without U201 you are limited to 8 channels including hall sensor input and you have more then 8 inputs in your list.

Anyway - yes, it's trivial to re-map the channels, so we can use the 2nd chip to begin with. Can you please get TPS and MAP channels ready, and looks like you would need to get different 'bias' (pull-up) resistors for CLT and IAT.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I pulled a couple of pads off the PCB for U201. I could populate another board, as I have two spares, but rather than do that I'd sooner limp along with what I have until I out grow it.

It looks like Frankenstein incorporates this board for analog and input capture inputs. It also has lots of Low and Hi side output drivers as well as a VR input, Can bus and Micro USB TTL.

How about digital inputs to Discovery? Do they go direct to the pins with no signal conditioning?

How about MAP and Baro sensors? Any plans to incorporate them or just proto board something and connect it somehow?

MS has an on board MAP sensor but I have a spare daughter board with my Baro sensor on it. I could jury rig something to use that sensor for MAP or Baro for testing, but only one at a time because that's the only spare MX4250 I have at the moment.

What channel would you like me to use for TPS and what is the schematic so I make sure I have the right resistors installed?

Same thing for all the other inputs. I can work from 2013-07-07 BZR 4022 if you just let me know what changes I should make as the schematic shows the board as fully populated.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

TPS channel 5
CLT channel 6
IAT channel 7
MAP channel 8

As you remember, as of today there is only one engine running. We only have what we have needed so far, there will be Frankenstein 0.2, 0.3, 0.4 and probably 0.5 at some point. Hopefully there will be.

Anyway. I was always curious, why would MS put a MAP right on the board? Why not have the MAP sensor somewhere under the hood and run a wire, the way OEM does? Just to make it simpler by not thinking where to mount it?

We did not need any digital inputs yet that's why no circuitry for them yet. The slogan on the top of this page is "An attempt to build an Engine Control Unit based on stm32."

But I am confident we are capable of adding something once we need it :) And if you can contribute to that by sharing your favorite signal conditioning schematics, it could be either on a napkin or as a KiCad file.
2013-07-07 BZR 4022
That's KiCad build date and version number, not a version of any of our files. I am not sure if there was a single KiCad file in rusEfi on this date, Jared has converted me to KiCad probably in late July or August.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I suppose I was getting a bit ahead of myself. I was thinking along the lines of getting rusefi developed to the point where it could be a direct replacement for my MS. But that's OK. Baby steps first.

I suspect that the reason MS and FreeEMS use on board Map sensors is because the sensors themselves are relatively small and inexpensive as compared to a stand alone sensor. It's almost as easy to run some tubing from the engine to the ECU as it is to wire it.

At this point it looks like Discovery is powered through the USB cable which means it must always be connected to a computer to run. Is another power supply an option?

The main reason I ask is that I notice that the 5 volt output on Discovery puts out considerably less than 5 volts and I am concerned that this may be a problem for sensors that are designed to have a 5 volt supply. As sensors are added the load may exceed what Discovery can handle.

I have KiCad but I'm not familiar with it at all. It' a lot more powerful than the schematic and PCB software I am used to. As far as circuits are concerned, I have no formal training in this so I just copy what works with MS. I can post a few screen shots if you like.

I'll work on connecting the input channels and see what happens.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Baby steps. We've got a cute baby, let's teach it everything together. I would need your help & input.

Gotcha. Most of the cars I've got stock ECU location is somewhere closer to the driver, so the tubing idea just seems kind of wrong :)

Power supply: http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Frankenstein_board#Random_notes

Let's respect MS patents. We have some amazing EE here, I know we will get digital inputs taken care of.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

So tell me about MS patents.

Their schematics are published on the internet, free for anybody to see. I'm almost certain that these circuits were not particularly designed by the MS team, but rather a compilation of many ideas. I don't see where the physical circuitry can be patented if it has been made public. The firm ware, perhaps, but I have difficulty with that as well because the earlier versions at least were openly published and evolved with the help of a number of contributors that have nothing to do with the existing MS organization. At one time they openly encouraged participation, as do you.

Surely this doesn't mean that because a circuit is used in MS it can't be used by anyone else because of patents?

For that matter, if I see a circuit that I would like to use that is open on the internet or in a book, or anywhere, does this mean I have to make sure it is not patent, or copy right protected?

I can appreciate that you have to be careful about these things, especially in the US of A where litigation seems to run rampant, almost beyond logic. But that is the world we live in, so let's define the lines we must not cross.

I must admit, The whole concept of open source confuses me. If it is open, as in open to everyone, what is with the licence thing?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

In short terms, it's totally f-up.

For firmware, please re-ask the Q if you want to at http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=324
But there is also http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=325

Hardware I have even less understanding, I am simply paranoid and the less pics of existing designs, especially MS, we have, the more comfortable I am. I am in this country for four years but I have already gained some practical experience in court. It's totally f-up.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Understood, but it makes open hardware design almost impossible, because even if you conceive of a circuit yourself, and publish it as your own, free for anyone to use, if someone has published it before you, even without your knowledge, you are in violation of some obscure law. Same thing probably applies for firm ware. I don't see any solution here, only absolute paranoia if anything we do is made public. To me this seems inconceivable. If it is true then all I can say is, what a shame.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I am an opposite of an expert here, my paranoia tells me that not referencing existing designs looks safer :)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I'll have to agree with that. If there is no direct reference it should make any case against you harder. What a pile of crap! And, what a shame. The real shame is that I see this as severely limiting what we can do.

I've gone on record as using designs, code and ideas of others, that have been publicly published on the internet, magazines and engineering text books, either "as found" or with my modifications. None, or very little of this originated from my brain from concept to reality. Now, if because of some obscure law, in any nation, I can be found liable if I contribute this knowledge to an open forum I would probably be well advised just to clam up and contribute nothing.

Inconceivable.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

About MAP sensors for MS and FredEMS. They use MAP not MAF. That's a key difference between OEM's and race vehicles. An OEM MAF sensor directly correlates to the weight of the air that has moved past the sensor. MAP uses a pressure differential which can be used to predict how much air mass passed that sensing point. DIY projects often like to use the MAP on PCB as it's hard for the electrical noise to induce errors with the air tube that runs out into the engine bay. OEM's don't get very concerned with the electrical noise as they have experiences engineers and controlled conditions for how the wires are place and such. In a DIY project, you're not so lucky, and people better understand mechanical issues than electrical noise issues. Also a MAP typically has a faster reaction time than a hot wire MAF or a flappy paddle MAF. So racers often prefer the MAP as it allows them to fine tune things a bit better.

About the MS thermistor / resistor choices.... That's what got me banned from the MS forums. For an "open" project they do not take kindly to folks that point out flaws in the design. I see something good came from that though. They originally used and suggested a 2.2k, they now use and suggest a 2.49k. I had pointed out that most thermistor sensors themselves have an absolute maximum of 2mW that the thermistor can dissipate. Dissipating more than 2mW damages the sensor causing pre-mature failures of the sensors often seen as non-accurate readings then eventually open circuit. The 2.2k exceeded the 2mW between 55C to 95C. However the 2.49k peaks to 2mW at 65C. I don't think they liked me as I pointed out they had units in the field with a very significant problem, as well they had a bunch of inventory that needed to be re-worked before sales. Or at least I hope that is what was going through their heads. I just pointed out the issue and how it would not work for my application on a small motor. I couldn't accept the self heating errors induced by such high current that is passed through the thermistor, as my thermistor wouldn't be connected to a large block of brass. I would be simply hanging in the breeze. I inquired how to change the software and hardware to get a proper reading. I ended up e-mailing Bruce before all was said and done, Bruce personally threaten me with patent infringement litigation. So I stopped talking with him and moved on. I still have that un-assembled MS in the basement, as the manual is required to successfully built it and they won't let me see the manual. I have to specifically know what to request, then I have to request it from Bruce. He refuses to tell me what I can request though. With out the support of the forums and the manual, I simply won't build it. They claim to be open, as I can request the documents and Bruce would provide it. However that's a bunch of BS. As far as I'm concerned MS is a closed system.

I posted a spread sheet that shows a bunch of stuff about the thermistor at different temperatures found here http://jaredharvey.com/Files/projects/Engine_control/snow_blower/Murata_temp_curve.xls Note it still shows the 2.2k that MS originally suggested. You can change cell A5 to 2.49 to get an updated curve. You can see the watts dissipated by the thermistor by looking at column G. You can also see that at -15C your curve is bending and is becoming less accurate. However this only really matters for the priming pulse. You really don't need a very accurate temperature when you are cold, as you generally run rich until you warm up. Then you can start fine tuning based on temperature.

Does that answer some things?
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

They ask fro 22K, not 2.2K

; Ford ECT
;
; ***** CAUTION - NON STD BIAS RESISTOR REQUIRED *****
; File generated for use with 22000 ohm resistor at R7
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

oops, it turns out I could have banged my dad's new temperature sensor from his audi by using a small bias resistor? he bought it but didn't have time to install it :D

funny story about that ms license-related stuff… probably that's good, otherwise you wouldn't be here with us? :D
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I assembled another simplified test bench for rusEFI. I use an old computer power supply so I have both regulated 12VDC and 5VDC available. I dusted off my old "Stimlator" so I have a PIP signal, CLT, IAT, TPS, and EGO. I also have 5V LEDs available to test INJ1, INJ2, Fuel Pump and SPOUT. I've mounted my daughter board so I have an MPX4250 for MAP sensor.

PIP is connected to channel 11
TPS is connected to channel 5
IAT is connected to channel 6
CLT is connected to channel 7
MAP is connected to channel 8

With everything connected and powered up the dev consol shows Discovery responding to RPM changes but no action from any other inputs, yet. I'm assuming there has to be some firmware changes and some changes on the analog board.

Awaiting further instructions.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

A picture paints a thousand words.

I am back from the soldering duty, there will be some firmware support for this later today - that's now #1 on my list.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Is this what you had in mind or do you want some screen shots of the consol?
Attachments
011.JPG
011.JPG (2.9 MiB) Viewed 18196 times
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Perfect, that's exactly what I was looking for.

The plywood... That's a step forward from my pegboard :)
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

If I'd had peg board laying around I probably would have used it, in order to keep with tradition.

I tried to reduce the size of the image with Gimp, but then it wouldn't accept the file extension. Was the file size any problem?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Gimp hint: if the extension was wrong I assume you were trying 'Save' or 'Save as...'. That's a kind in GIMP: you need to use 'overwrite' or 'export' to get a common file format.

I've adjusted "Ford 1995 inline 6" configuration for CLT, IAT and TPS.
FYI here is the code:

Code: Select all

	setThermistorConfiguration(&engineConfiguration->cltThermistorConf, -10, 160310, 60, 7700, 120.00, 1180);
	engineConfiguration->cltThermistorConf.bias_resistor = 2700;

	setThermistorConfiguration(&engineConfiguration->iatThermistorConf, -10, 160310, 60, 7700, 120.00, 1180);
	engineConfiguration->iatThermistorConf.bias_resistor = 2700;

	engineConfiguration->tpsAdcChannel = 0; // input channel 5 is ADC0
	engineConfiguration->cltAdcChannel = 4; // input channel 7 is ADC4
	engineConfiguration->iatAdcChannel = 12; // input channel 6 is ADC12

	// divided by 2 because of voltage divider, then converted into 10bit ADC value (TunerStudio format)
	engineConfiguration->tpsMin = (1.250 / 2) * 1024 / 3.3;
	engineConfiguration->tpsMax = (4.538 / 2) * 1024 / 3.3;
It should be kind of readable if you consider the Frankenstain Input <> ADC channel mapping table
Image

Please upload the firmware, set_engine_type 7 and you should be able to play with these three.

MAP stuff coming tomorrow - need a bit of Friday for myself, tomorrow is also the yellow race car wrenching day.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I've got some weirdness happening here.

The PIP input still seems to work OK but I get no response on the gauges when I try the IAT pot. I do get a response on the CLT gauge with the CLT pot. When I try the TPS pot it there is no response on the TPS gauge but it responds on the CLT gauge. The two seem to compound on the gauge. When I measure the voltage at the input terminals to the analog board the TPS reads ~0 to~5 v. Both CLT and IAT read ~0 to ~3.8v. The act independently from each other.

I have no idea how the analog board circuits are supposed to work but perhaps I damaged U202 and U203 as well.

Here's a screen shot of the schematic for the simulator I'm using.

http://i.imgur.com/cnEZuAX.png
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Please try troubleshooting it using this table - it should tell you which input is routed to each discovery pin.
*a wrong table was here*

The voltage on the pins should change if inputs change. What are your pull-up and pull-down resistors on these three channels we are playing with now?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Only PA4 changes. All pull ups are 2.7k all pull downs are 500k
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

You should remove TPS pull-up and CLT and IAT pull-downs
Here is how it should be:
Image
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

PS: once you take these three off, can you please check if voltage actually changes on inputs when you spin the pots?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

What do you measure with a meter on say PC2 referenced to STM GND pin? Then does that measurement correlate correctly to what you are seeing in the PC software. Are you using the console, or TS for the PC software?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I haven't pulled any resistors yet.

I'm using the consol. I checked for voltage at PC2 and found none. So I started investigating. According to the schematic PC2 is connected to Out 11 which is connected to W211
PA0 is connected to Out 9
PA4 is connected to Out 5

I confirmed this by checking continuity on a spare board.

Standing by.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

My mistake - I have wrongfully assumed that Frankenstein analog board pinout is the same as analog input v 0.2 you are using. Let me change the channel mapping in the firmware real quick.
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E4ODnut
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gibsons, BC, Canada

Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

No problem.

Are you sure you want me to pull those resistors?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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