1995 Ford E-150

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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

None of the caps read a short.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

5k to GND probably won't register as a beep test or short test. It might also not register on the ohm reading for you meter, as the meter will typically only generate around 1V for the ohms tests. You probably get more leakage as you increase voltage across the cap. Only way to really test it is to remove the cap.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

C250 gone. No change
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

Hmmm, I still don't suspect the op-amp, those are usually fairly good about thermal cycling and ESD. Can you put one meter lead into the input screw terminal, and see if you measure 10k at the op-amp input? I wonder if there might be a poor connection across either the 10k or the 100ohm.

Also can I get some details about the iron?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I checked the circuit resistance before as part of my troubleshooting. With the TPS input disconnected I show 10.14k from Input 5 terminal to U202 pin 12. The schematic shows I should have 10.1K so that is well within tolerance. I show 0.509 Meg from pin 12 to ground.

I'm using a Circuit Test SX-500 station with a fine tip that measures ~ 1/32" at the end. Temperature is set to ~ 400C.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

Looks like a good station. You might have it set a bit high, according to this fellow they claim 315C for SMT and 370C for thru hole http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/1980/whats-the-proper-soldering-iron-temperature-for-standard-031-60-40-solder

I seem to recall circuits 1-4 are toast. Do you see the same issue there? It's getting hard to claim it's not the op-amp. Can you preform some tests on that area of the board?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I did a major test. The results are not good. Only Inputs 3, 10, 11 and 12 survived the transplant. It's enough to play around with a bit but that's all.

Andrey, where would you like me to distribute things so you can change the firm ware, again?

Jared, if the BOM is up to date?

If so I'll put together another Digikey order to build another board, but this time I'll only populate what I need, and hopefully in the right orientation.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Fresh firmware has

Code: Select all

	engineConfiguration->tpsAdcChannel = 7; // input channel 3 is PA7, that's ADC7
	engineConfiguration->cltAdcChannel = 13; // input channel 10 is PC3, that's ADC13
there is also a new command 'analoginfo' which might help a bit.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Oops, I screwed up. Input 10 did not survive, It should have read Input 9.

So, TPS will now be on Input 3.
CLT will be on Input 9???.
I'm assuming we'll leave PIP on Input 11.
That leaves us IAT for Input 12 connected to what pin on Discovery????

If this works for you then I assume I'll pull R230, R201 and R321. Is that correct?

One more question. I had a hellova time trying to clean off that tack flux for the SMDs. Has anyone got a recommendation for anything better than alcohol (not the drinking kind)?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I use http://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Heavy-Remover-Aerosol/dp/B005DNQWV0

You would need to jump two pads of W212 - this case inp 12 is PC1.

TPS does not need pull-up and both thermistors need only a pull-up.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

I updated the BOM in the analog input thread.

You should be able to get some flux off from digikey if you're going to place an order there. That would probably save some shipping costs. Here's one example, it might be worth while to shop around at digikey to see if there are other options. These spray cans often go fairly quickly, I know you can often get a bottle of the stuff and that will last much longer. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ES835B/ES835B-ND/2179538
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

OK, I've made some progress with my severely wounded analog board.
TPS on Ch 3 R230 pulled
CLT on Ch 9 R291 pulled
IAT on Ch 12 R321 pulled, W212 jumpered
PIP on Ch 11 W211 to PC6

Console still responds to PIP frequency changes.
TPS responds but is quite "jumpy", range ~0% to ~100%
IAT responds smoothly but rails at ~ 100F before full range of pot. Range ~50F to ~100F
CLT responds smoothly, range ~50 to ~245. However, CLT also changes MAF Volts and AFR gauges

This simulator was originally built to simulate GM thermistors so it uses 10k pots. The information I have is that the Ford sensors have a resistance of 1.18K @ 248F and 95.85K @ 32F. Perhaps I should use 100K pots to get a more realistic simulation?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

You can play with tempinfo command - currently it shows perceived resistance only, I will adjust it to show a bit more. As long as the values match http://rusefi.com/articles/measuring_temperature/Steinhart-Hart.shtml we are fine.

Weird, I believe the coefficients are the same for IAT and CLT so we are expecting the same range if same pot is used. Let me double-check, and you can see if tempinfo stuff looks right.

Re: MAF and AFT - please see how this plays via 'analoginfo' command. If the values change you should see if they change on the analog board level?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Here are some screen shots, pots full deflection one way, then the other.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

One more.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Looking at your temperature calculator and the information I have on the Ford temperature sensors I see:
212F @ 2.07K
104F @ 16.15K (approximately mid range of expected values to be measured)
-10F @ 160.31K

If I use as close as a 16.15K voltage divider resistor (pull up) as I can find I should get as accurate indications as possible. If I use 100K pots on the simulator I should be able to simulate down to ~ 32F and well above 212F.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

So MAF is configured to use the same channel as CLT - so, no surprise here. This is fine, no problem here.

AFR - PC4 - on the other hand is not supposed to change. Either PC4 is electrically connected to something, or it's a floating pin so it's just the issue of floating ADC channel showing the weather on Mars.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I'm going to build a second analog board, so that should take care of analog and input capture inputs.
I can bread board something to mount the MAP and Baro sensors on.
Now I have to consider outputs.
As I understand things the injector driver boards can handle injectors, fuel pump and ignition drivers as well as any other current sinking device. I only need two injector channels, fuel pump and an ignition driver so the 6 channel board is more than I need. Having said that, when you consider shipping it's more cost effective for me to get 3 of the 12 channel boards from Osh Park. Any reason why I shouldn't use the 12 channel flavor?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote: As I understand things the injector driver boards can handle injectors, fuel pump and ignition drivers as well as any other current sinking device.
Yes, but only one ignition driver - see Manual:Hardware_Frankenstein_board#Random_notes

It looks like one of the channels of the 6 channel board does not work great - the pin it connects to cannot provide enough current or something. So you are choosing between a 5 channel and a 10 channel board, unless you want to start taking stuff of the discovery board. I am afraid of taking stuff of the discovery with a hot air gun and I just do not see this done with a soldering iron.

I thought oshpark is free shipping, is not it? if it's not free, you are also close to the price of bare Frankenstein board @ https://www.tindie.com/products/russian/frankenstein-diy-ecu-board-rev-01-bare-pcb/
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Or, I could just scrap the second analog board idea and the injector driver board idea and buy a fully assembled Frankenstein for not much more than the cost of the two boards, components and shipping.

Then, all I need to add is the 12v to 5v Ebay power supply and MAP and Baro sensors. Correct?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

This looks to be right to the best of my knowledge.

There is a caveat - I am not using MAP and so far there were no MAP runs. I cannot guarantee anything.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by rus084 »

russuan , do you will run your engine with MAP?

and need make graphic for kpa/voltage for us ?
its very easy with school education sensors , but i have not Y tube yet for connect map , sensor and pump
if its not need , i will not do it .
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Somewhere in the future yes, I want to run my car with MAP, but that's a low priority right now.

Once Robert gets closer and SD logic would be the only thing holding him, that would change the priorities.

See also MAP but not SD as intermediate solution?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Speed Density using Manifold Absolute Pressure as opposed to Alpha N (Throttle Position and RPM) is the only option for me. It works well and I want to stay with it. The only thing I would seriously consider changing some time in the future would be to go to waste spark, semi sequential injection using a 36-1 trigger.

EDIT

I don't mind being a test bench for SD. rusefi is being built as a direct replacement for what I have. Plug it in, try it, unplug it, back to what I had.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Please do not get me wrong - I know that everyone wants SD and it's definitely will be there. And I know the theory. And I have already started the implementation.

It's just that right now I need to release/prove/test as FEW features as possible, so that I can focus on these features and get them to a proper state. For now I am compromising on MAF and Alpha-N so that I can properly focus on 1) trigger decoding 2) basic outputs control 3) TunerStudio configurability

The rest, SD including, should be build on top of that. I am a primitive human with a tiny brain, I cannot fight too many wars at the same time.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

About fluttering signals, can you post multi meter readings, as well as the console readings? Basically do you see it fluttering with a meter on the STM input? Do you have an O-Scope? If you don't have one, have you heard of the DSOquad? I love my quad, very handy.

Oh, also when and if you populate another op-amp, it might be good to start with the GND pin. The ESD diodes often attempt to dump to GND, so if you happened to solder GND after several other pins, the iron may have done some small ESD's that could have broken the input. I don't know if that's the issue or not, but it might explain things a bit.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Jared,
Good tip about ESD.

I have a Velleman HS10 personal scope, but I use it so seldom that I'm not comfortable with it at all and it's a learning curve in the manual every time I pick it up.

I don't think there is any point doing any more tests on this board because it has suffered too much damage and may complicate the tests.

I haven't decided if I will populate another analog board and get an injector driver board of some flavor, or go directly to Frankenstein, bare, part or fully assembled. I'd like to gather up whatever I'm going to need fairly soon so that I will have something for Andrey to test things on whenever he is ready.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Why not populate another analog board? You have the board and you can get the parts pretty fast. The only pain would be soldering :)

You have a pretty cool stimulator bench so you can test quite a lot with it, without waiting for the injector parts or all the small pieces you need for F. And soldering F is a pain. And waiting for the fully assembled F is time. Seems that with just an analog board which you can get faster then anything else you can test a lot.

On the other hand, F approach is cooler because you get second COM port so you can play with both the console and TS. But you can do the same with a USB TTL device, it's just too many flimsy wires.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Did you just change the shipping costs in your store for the 6 channel driver board to Canada? I could swear it said $25 yesterday.

Sure, I can populate another analog board and get components for your 6 channel driver board with the same order. When I get it I'll populate it so we can use it to blink some LEDs on the simulator.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Yes I did change shipping costs to Canada - I've adjusted them to reality. I am failing to understand USPS so I am learning from experience.
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