1995 Ford E-150

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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Primitovo, Zinfandel! I used to make a lot of that stuff from scratch, crusher, press, demijohns, the whole deal. Had too many unexplained failures so I gave up and just make wine at the local U-Brew. Still relatively cheap and no failures.

Back to business.

I assembled a new circuit to simulate PIP with maximum of 5 volts. Nice square wave, frequency only varies ~0.05 hz when set.I fed it through input 11, out 11 jumpered to PA5. No joy. So I connected directly to PA5 and got results, but very jumpy on all gauges. During the course of trying to figure out why I disconnected the jumper from PIP supply and still had jumpy read outs. Disconnect jumper, no RPM, others pulse at 1 hz. Connect jumper wire to PA5 only and RPM shows up jumping all over , other gauges as well.

Looks like Discovery is very fussy about noise, wherever it's coming from.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
puff
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

just pip simulator and that's all?? no spark plugs, no high voltages? what could be the source of that noise? any ideas?
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

If you have a wire which is connected just to the discovery pin, and the other end is not connected - that's an antenna and it's receiving whatever is in the air. I get absolutely the same behavior, that expected behavior.

Now, let's try "self-stimulation" again. (I know it sounds funny :) ) - please connect PD1 to your input pin. Then, use rpm 500, rpm 2500, rpm 5000 commands. That gives a pretty accurate & stable RPM value on my bench. For instance, for rpm 5000 the value is jumping from 4997 to 5005 which is less then 1% looks good enough.

Now, let's replace self-stimulation with direct pin stimulation using your stimulator. I would expect the same level of precision, right? Is it the case?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

In self stim all is good. If I set RPM to 1000 I read ~43hz. Display is steady +_~1RPM. If I try direct connection to my stim @~43 hz the display jumps around between ~2000 and 3000 RPM. Discovery is not plugged into the analog board and I have a ground jumper between my stim ground and Discovery ground.

One other odd thing is if I'm asking for 1000 RPM on internal stim, why is the frequency ~43hz? At 3 rising edges on the input per revolution shouldn't the frequency be 1000RPM / 60 = 16.66hz x 3 = 50 hz?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

I know your scope is questionable or something like that, but it would probably really help right now. I suspect you are getting some ringing. Can you post a picture of the setup? Hopefully something that shows the wires. Also what is generating the signals? I know some schematics have been noted, but what's actually connected and such. I'm not seeing the hip bone to leg bone kind of connections, so it's hard for me to comment very well.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

The scope is not in question, or at least I don't think so. It is the operator of the scope that is in question.

It will take me a day or so to simplify the set up, take the photos, document the set up to the photos and post it for you, but I will do that ASAP.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

so, are there live sparkplugs connected to the system?
russian, I believe the difference of your running engine from these two cases is that you had ecu inside the car, away from the engine. unfortunately, the other guy didn't shoot the video of his devconsole while cranking.
i've just placed an order for a foiled cardbox for the discovery board - for my kid's handycrafts lessons :-)
and i'm looking for small steel buckets to place the sparkplugs there...
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Here's the setup and schematics.
Attachments
Superstim, 5v power supply, signal generator, MAP signal, Discovery and boards
Superstim, 5v power supply, signal generator, MAP signal, Discovery and boards
003.JPG (247.4 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Schematic for signal generator
Schematic for signal generator
12V square wave signal generator.png (96.44 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Schematic to convert 12v square wave to 5v square wave
Schematic to convert 12v square wave to 5v square wave
12V square wave 5 v conditioning.png (58.9 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Some scope shots.
My Fluke 87 read output from the signal generator at 6.11v, 50hz, 50.7% duty cycle. Output from the 5v conditioner read 2.49v, 50hz, 50.7% duty cycle. 50hz for a 6 cyl 4 stroke is 1000 RPM.
Attachments
Wave form at Discovery
Wave form at Discovery
006.JPG (165.57 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Wave form after conditioning to 5v
Wave form after conditioning to 5v
002.JPG (113.4 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Wave form from the signal generaator
Wave form from the signal generaator
001.JPG (135.7 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Here's the setup for testing the PIP signal only and what the Dev Consol reports. As you can see, no spark plugs, injectors or any other thing that should make noise. Interesting!
Attachments
Dev Consol 2
Dev Consol 2
005.JPG (264.09 KiB) Viewed 17903 times
Dev Consol 1
Dev Consol 1
004.JPG (274.71 KiB) Viewed 17903 times
Connection to test PIP only
Connection to test PIP only
007.JPG (245.66 KiB) Viewed 17903 times
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
puff
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

dates on the devconsole window bar are a bit weird.
i'd remove everything from discovery but for pip simulator and check the readings.
then I'd probably submerge into the source code for that ford inline v6… those 0ms sparks seem (every odd event) look pretty strange, as if something is left in the source code (as far as I got russian has remapped certain pins - he could have forgotten to comment out some unnecessary function?)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

russian, are we talking about this one?
https://svn.code.sf.net/p/rusefi/code/trunk/firmware/config/engines/ford_1995_inline_6.c
or a different (customized) file?
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Yes, it's this file. At this point we are not concerned with the spark - at this point the question is that trigger signal is not processed properly (it should look like a 50% wave but it looks as 99.999% wave right now - the upper row)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

argh. i see. you believe it's caused by electromagnetic interference? or it's a software bug?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Since self-stimulation works, I am pretty sure that the issue with trigger decoding / rpm measurement is electrical.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

hm. is the scope on the last picture connected to the discovery AND stimulator, or just to stimulator?
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

The photo showing Discovery with the scope in the background shows the scope connections to ground and Discovery PA5.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

pa5 is your trigger input? what's the purpose of c8 r11 on the level shifter? could it be so that with internal resistor they form somewhat an rc generator?
jared? :D
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

R11 is not needed when connected to MS because the 908 CPU has internal pull-ups for input pins. I am using it in this case to get a 5 volt referenced signal for the analog board or Discovery. I have no idea what C8 does, I just copied a circuit that worked.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
puff
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

E4ODnut, could you try connecting a scope to the internal self-simulation pin (russian - was it pd1 or pd2 or anything else? there looks to be no electrical components to ruin anything…)
the other thing is I can't see where is 'div' on this walleman device. where's zero V, where is 2V? could it be the lack of voltage difference? but in that case there shouldn't be any pulses at all...
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

When I connect to PD1, the internal pulse generator I get a crisp square wave at 1.413 volts according to the scope. The wave form is no different than the form my stimulator generates.

As far as the ms/div and v/div display goes, that's the difficulty with operator part. I haven't figured out how to display that yet, but I'll try.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

it might be you missed (or lost) just a sticker on the bezel?
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

nope
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

have you tried feeding pd1 to pa5 without turning off the stimulator (just to check for possible EMI?)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

I hope to reply tonight, if I forget, please ping me. Also might be worth while to read about "tank circuits" I think that is what was referenced by the RC generator comment. I have to look at it closer to really make a comment.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

OK. I finally figured out how to bring up the reference lines or grid on the scope. Using the markers the resolution is a bit coarse but it corresponds pretty close to the scope meter read outs. In the photos of the wave forms ground reference is the bottom of the waves.

My new found knowledge, which will probably be deleted from my brain in about 15 minutes, has pointed me to a possible explanation on what took out PC6. My Fluke VOM reads average DC voltage. It does have a Min/Max function but the sampling period is quite long. When I set my power supply so I was reading ~4.5v PIP input to PC6, the peak voltage would have been about 9 volts. I re-created the conditions as close as I could and with no connection to Discovery confirmed the peak voltage with the scope. It looks like I am guilty of man slaughter, or pin slaughter, or whatever.

Puff,
I tried your suggestion about possible EMI from the stim. Makes no difference, stim off or on. Lovely square wave signal to Discovery, garbage on the Consol.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
puff
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

E4ODnut, at least you've learned how to kill a pin ;-)
russian, is there a chance that console (or console-related code in the firmware) is somehow misbehaving? (z.b. expecting/reading signal from the wrong pin?) is there a way to output that trigger signal (the internal one, after the decoding logic) to another pin? :roll:
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I tried another thing.

I have Discovery plugged into the boards, but I'm getting the PIP signal from PD1. RPM is nice and steady at 1200+_2, but TPS, IAT, CLT and AFR are jumping all over the place. Input signals to them is nice and steady.

It's a long shot, but could it have something to do with the fact that we are powering Discovery through the USB cable and not the same power supply as the Stim and analog board?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

AFAIK the only required thing is common ground. Is there a common ground?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Yes. My 5 volt power supply is connected to 5v and ground inputs on the analog board and Discovery plugs into the analog board. I have continuity between Discovery ground pins and the ground terminals on the analog board.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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