1995 Ford E-150

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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

At this point in time at least, I'm thinking that the most practical compromise for 4, 6 and 8 cyl engines being converted from carb to EFI, and being tuned mainly on the road, as opposed to many hours on the dyno, would be speed density (MAP), 36-1 crank trigger, waste spark, semi-sequential port injection.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

I don't see any real issues with the batched injectors, so you should be able to swap between systems as you desire.
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I've just implemented batch injection and enabled it for your configuration:

Image

If heat would be an issue I can either implement parallel MOSFET control or you can use sequential injection with three MOSFETs in parallel - so while one MOSFET drivers three injections it only does it each third time.

Have you received the injector board?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Yup. Got the board yesterday, expect parts to arrive this coming Monday or Tuesday.

This will be a new build for the analog board so I can assign inputs to whatever you like. Your call.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Andrey,
Do you have any preferred pin assignments for the analog board?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I'm I should have responded faster.

My only wish would be to have MAP on pin PA3, if http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=469&start=130#p6657 info is valid that's channel #6 on your board. Everything else can be absolutely anywhere where it's convenient to you.
If you want we can keep it where we have left it:
engineConfiguration->tpsAdcChannel = 7; // input channel 3 is PA7, that's ADC7
engineConfiguration->cltAdcChannel = 0; // input channel 9 is PA0, that's ADC0
engineConfiguration->iatAdcChannel = 11; // input channel 12 is PC1, that's ADC11
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

No problem. I'll report back when both boards are ready for your firmware.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

It's been a long day.

I have both boards assembled and the analog board checked out, but not without difficulties. I populated the board for:
TPS input 5
MAP input 6
IAT input 7
O2 input10
PIP input 11

I had lots of weirdness happening. To make a long story short, I checked the data sheet and it looks to me like there is an error in the OP AMP pin outs for channel 3 and the board is made to the schematic. This renders inputs 2, 6 and 10. unusable.

My configuration now is:
TPS input 5
IAT input 7
CLT input 8
MAP input9
PIP input 11
O2 input 12

The output voltages on all analog channels are slightly less than half that of the input voltages.

There is something interesting going on with the PIP signal. The frequency out is exactly twice that of the input frequency.

What is the purpose of the OP AMPs on this board?

I have LEDs on my simulator for outputs, SParkOUTput, Fuel Pump, Inj1 and Inj2. What pin assignment would you like me to use on the injector board?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Why op-amps - see http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19&p=7167#p7167

I've updated your default configuration:

Code: Select all

	// 12ch analog board pinout:
	// input channel 3 is PA7, that's ADC7
	// input channel 5 is PA4, that's ADC4
	// input channel 6 is PA3, that's ADC3
	// input channel 7 is PA2, that's ADC2
	// input channel 8 is PA1, that's ADC1
	// input channel 9 is PA0, that's ADC0
	// input channel 10 is PC3, that's ADC13
	// input channel 12 is PC1, that's ADC11

	engineConfiguration->tpsAdcChannel = 4;
	engineConfiguration->iatAdcChannel = 2;
	engineConfiguration->cltAdcChannel = 1;
	engineConfiguration->afrSensor.afrAdcChannel = 11;
please update the firmware.

For PIP input you still need to jump from W211 to PC6 as we did before, for input 12 you would need to jump W212.

Will respond on the outputs a bit later.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

The way I read the data sheet for the OP AMP:
pin 10 is ch3 in+
pin 9 is ch3 in-
pin 8 is ch3 out

The schematic shows:
pin 10 is ch3 in-
pin 9 is ch3 in+
pin 8 is ch3 out

The board is built to the schematic
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

No big deal. We are all imperfect humans and this is just part of the design testing process.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:There is something interesting going on with the PIP signal. The frequency out is exactly twice that of the input frequency.
Frequency out? Frequency in? I am not following :( I believe we've got the java console to display more or less the correct RPM, is it broken again? http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=469&p=6426#p6426

I hope you do not mind - I've edited the thread just a little bit, too many pages hard to find stuff - so I have removed a bit of offtopic just to simplify navigation.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Edit all you want, it's fine with me.

So far I am testing the analog board connected to my power supply and simulator. Discovery is not plugged into the board and I would prefer not to plug it in until I am comfortable that the signals we are sending it are what we would expect to be sending given the inputs on the analog board.

I checked the PIP frequency again for you.

Frequency on Input 11,10 hz. Frequency on Out 11, 20.2 hz.
Frequency on Input 11, 20 hz. Frequency on Out 11, 40.05 hz.
Frequency on Input 11, 30.1 hz. Frequency on Out 11, 60.3 hz.
Frequency on Input 11, 40.2 hz. Frequency on Out 11, 80.4 hz.

During my troubleshooting yesterday I suspected the Schottkty diodes again. I checked the part number 497-2516-1-ND in the Digikey catalogue and the ST data sheet. The Digiky number crosses to a ST number BAS70-04FILM (series). That should be the correct part except for one thing. The data sheet says it should be marked "D97", but it is marked "HJM8". I searched on line but could find no reference to an "HJM8" mark.

I decided to test them with my good old Fluke 87 in "diode check" mode. I was expecting to see forward voltage readings ~0.5V and reverse voltage of infinity. I tested 5 of them and they were all reasonably consistent.
As viewed from the marked side, from the top pin to lower right I get a forward voltage of ~1.75v and a reverse voltage of ~0.5v. From the top pin to the lower left pin I get a forward voltage of ~2.9V and a reverse voltage of ~.5v. I don't know what to make of this but I have removed the Schottkys from the circuits.

I have some 20V 1 amp individual Schottkys kicking around so I checked a few of them. I get ~ 0.12v forward and infinity reverse.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Here is the output pinout (you would need to take latest firmware)

Code: Select all

	// 6 channel output board
	// output 1 is PB9
	// output 3 is PE3
	// output 5 is PC13
	// output 6 is PC15

	boardConfiguration->fuelPumpPin = GPIOC_13;
	boardConfiguration->injectionPins[0] = GPIOB_9;
	boardConfiguration->injectionPins[1] = GPIOE_3;
	boardConfiguration->ignitionPins[0] = GPIOC_15;
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Andrey,
Here's some interesting data for you.

Firmware 20140402@2514 Ford 1995 inline 6

PIP input 11 frequency 26.33 hz +_0.03 hz
Discovery PC6 frequency 26.33 hz +_ 0.03 hz
RPM jumpy ~1200 - ~1800, later ~1800 - ~ 3600

TPS input 5, 2.197v +_ 0.002v
Discovery PA4, 1.077v +_0.1v
TPS jumpy ~18% - ~36%

O2 input 12, 2.622v steady
Discovery PC1, jumpy ~1.26v
AFR jumpy ~13.3 - ~14.6

IAT input 7, 4.1v steady
Discovery PA2, 1.916v steady
No gauge reading

CLT input 8, 3.136v steady
Discovery PA1, 1.425v steady
No gauge reading
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

On my side:
hello command says
rusEFI v20140402@2496

showconfig command says
EngineState: Ford 1995 inline 6

analoginfo command says
2014-04-03 06_28: EngineState: TPS ADC4 PA4 value=0.32967v
2014-04-03 06_28: EngineState: CLT ADC1 PA1 value=0.89523v
2014-04-03 06_28: EngineState: IAT ADC2 PA2 value=4.36923v

tempinfo says
2014-04-03 06_29: EngineState: CLT v=0.92600 C=145.44180 R=613.70257 on channel 1
2014-04-03 06_29: EngineState: bias=2700.00000 A=0.00095 B=0.00021 C=0.00000
2014-04-03 06_29: EngineState: @PA1
2014-04-03 06_29: EngineState: IAT v=4.36336 C=36.99328 R=18505.40039 on channel 2
2014-04-03 06_29: EngineState: bias=2700.00000 A=0.00095 B=0.00021 C=0.00000
2014-04-03 06_29: EngineState: @PA2

tpsinfo says
2014-04-03 06_34: EngineState: tps min 193/max 704 v=1.23076 @PA4
2014-04-03 06_34: EngineState: current 10bit=210 value=3.32680 rate=0.00000

CLT gauge shows something but air temp gauge is in fact showing nothing:
Image

I've looked at the code and apparently that's because IAT=130C is considered unrealistic because it is not in the -50c to 100c range, thus it is ignored. I've just modified the firmware and it is now writing a warning message:
EngineState: unrealistic intake temperature 130.15057

Can you please try these commands and see if they are in sync with your multimeter?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

The weirdness continued. I was getting "noisy signal warning" so I thought I'd better get into it deeper. I checked the PIP input with my scope and it was not the nice clean square wave that I expected. I checked the output in my Superstim. It was just fine. Something is amiss with the little stimulator, so back in the bin it went. I connected to the Superstim and things are now much better.

I have nice relatively steady read outs for TPS, IAT, CLT and O2. The gauges flutter a bit by a few decimal points but I don't believe that's an issue. The Analog Info screen agrees within a few tenths of a volt with my DVOM.

Tach reading is much better, but not good enough yet I think. The readings are quite steady at low RPM but get jumpier as they revs climb and are not good at all by about 5000 RPM. Input signal is steady. I noticed on the scope that the wave at PC6 is quite shallow and not as clearly defined as it is on input 11. Perhaps the signal voltage is getting too close to the lower limits?

I forgot to mention, I'm using 100k pots and 16.2K ballast resistors for IAT and CLT to more closely resemble the Ford sensors. I have to change the pots in the Superstim now.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Latest tests on Superstim not good. I'm assuming it's something I am doing wrong so let's start with the PIP signal on Analog board input 11, Out 11 junction at R314/315 jumpered to PC6.

What components need to be populated on the analog board to make that circuit work?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

That should be same as on Frankenstein - same schematic, just different layout: http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Frankenstein_board#Step_2a:_Hall_sensor_input
Inp11 would be trigger channel1: R310 1K pull-up, R311 500K pull-down, R312 10K current limiting, R313 100 smth, R314 1.5K & R315 1.5K voltage divider.
Then there should be a jumper wire between the R314/R315 side of W211 and pin PC6 on discovery.

The diode and the capacitor are optional. The pull-up & pull-down are probably not needed sometimes, depending on the exact signal source. R312, R313, R314 and R315 are required. If we suspect that the signal voltage is too low, we can take R315 and this case the op-amp output is not divided. PC6 pin on the MCU is 5v-tolerant.

What kind of voltage is the stimulator generating? If that's not above 5v, can you try connecting the stimulator directly to PC6 in order to test how would it handle 5K rpm without the op-amp?

Can you take a screen shot of 'digital sniffer' while it looks OK with lover RPM and then while it looks wrong at higher RPM?
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Things have gone from bad to worse. Now I don't have any RPM signal. I lowered my supply voltage so that PIP is less than 5 volts and connected directly to PC6. No change. Signal is clean square wave ~4.7 v at R312 entry but drops to about half on exit. About 1.7 at R314/R315 but shows no frequency on the VOM or scope. TPS, O2, CLT and IAT respond but very slow to react. Gauges jump to random positions every 1 second, even with inputs to the analog board powered off. Looks like there may be several problems here. Enough for one night.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:TPS, O2, CLT and IAT respond but very slow to react.
That's the only thing I can explain: gauges are updated only once a second if the engine is stopped.

If the simulated PIP connected directly to PC6 is not detected, are we sure it is crossing 0.7v? I believe 0.7 or something like that is the boundary between logical 0 and 1.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

New day, new attempt.

Not knowing if I had problems with my simulator, or my computer, or if it is rusefi related, I thought perhaps a good place to start would be from a known state beginning with my Superstim. I plugged a spare MS into it and opened Tuner Studio on my PC. I've never used this particular PC with MS before because it doesn't have a serial port. I have a USB/Serial adapter (that I've never used before) and connected the two. Everything was normal except TS was very slow to react to any changes on the Superstim.

Then I flashed up my good old IBM Thinkpad running XP. This is the machine I always use for MS tuning because it has a serial port. MS and TS were completely happy on this machine. Just for fun I tried the little stimulator. It too was happy in it's limited capabilities.

So, what this says to me is that there is nothing wrong with either of my simulators.
There may be something wrong with my PC and USB/Serial adapter combination but this kind of stuff is just a black art to me. There may be a problem with Discovery or the analog board in the way that the PIP signal is handled, or perhaps a combination of the two or even something else.

Right now I have PIP connected to input 11. R310, R311 and D310 are not installed. R312, R313, R314 and R315 are installed with a jumper from the R314/315 junction to PC6 on Discovery.

How do I determine if PIP is crossing 0.7v?
Would installing the pull down R311 help?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

We need an EE here :(

You have http://i.imgur.com/cnEZuAX.png stimulating MS, and it works.
You also have the same http://i.imgur.com/cnEZuAX.png stimulating rusEfi through channel 11, it works OK for lower RPM but it does not work for higher RPM around 5k. Is that right?

What does rusEfi show when you expect it to show 5k?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

At this point I am getting no RPM reading at any frequency and the analog inputs update once per second.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

What has changed since you were getting some readings?

#1 Can you run a jumper wire from PD1 (rusEfi own signal stimulator) to PC6 directly in order to validate that discovery is functional?

#2 Can you run a jumper wire from PD1 (rusEfi own signal stimulator) to input #11 in order to validate that this op-amp circuit is functional?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

What has changed? I wish I could answer that question Andrey. This troubleshooting has become quite a challenge, especially with me not being comfortable with my scope.

Anyway, with Discovery on it's own I measure ~ 1.7 v at pin PD1 at a frequency of ~ 53.7hz or so. Connected to PC6 I get no RPM reading. With Discovery plugged into the boards and PD1 input to Input 11 I still have no RPM. I have about the same voltage and frequency at the input pin and input to R312, but almost nothing on the output of R312
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:1.7 v at pin PD1 at a frequency of ~ 53.7hz or so. Connected to PC6 I get no RPM reading.
This is bad. This makes me think of my local discovery cemetery
Image:

I have compiled a version of the firmware which uses PA5 instead of PC6. Can you please program this version - http://rusefi.com/temp/zombie.zip - and connect your jumper wire from PD1 to PA5? If this would work this way, this would mean that you do not have pin PC6 anymore.
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E4ODnut
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

RIP PC6. Welcome to the cruel world of embedded programming PA5. I show RPM as 239 on the first pass, didn't check the frequency on the pin.

The price of a single Discovery delivered to my door, taxes in, is equivalent to a couple of bottles of decent wine, in this part of the planet. Discovery is disposable in the name of research, as long as it doesn't cost me too many potential bottles of wine.

So, the question is, what took out PC6 and how can we prevent it from taking out PA5? I don't know how many pins we have in reserve.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I raise a glass of Primitovo in memory of PC6. To reduce shipping after Ive burned the first one I've ordered three more, these three lasted over 12 months.

I would guess that somehow something outside of the 0-5v range got into PC6. You've seen my signature and you've seen my cemetery, I do not have the perfect answer - I am just trying to be careful :)
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

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