1995 Ford E-150

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kb1gtt
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

It appears that U2 is barely coming on. When X14 fires Q2, I expect about 10mA to flow through the diode. If that's 12V, I expect about a 1V drop in the LED, then some more drop across the Q2, so I'll ball park it as as 10V across a 1kohm, for 10mA. Then from the opto data sheet, It appears we can expect up to 6 to 8 mA passed by the output. Also don't forget it will have to first dump the energy found in C8. Oh, C8 and R11 are of little importance. R11 is a current limiting resistor, and C8 is just a bit of EMI suppression. I'm assuming that VCC is 5V, to pull down that output, you need to pull at least 5mA across the opto. That circuit doesn't have an excess of pull down capability, so it might be right on the edge of it's capability. I'd look closely at this signal and make sure it looks good on the scope. Also measure it's min voltage, as you need to pull the STM pin below something like .7V before it will be guaranteed to register as a 0 instead of a 1. What does that circuit drive? It appears it's driving something in the stim, and is not directly connected to rusEFI. I don't know what is connected to X4. I also don't know if that will provide a good signal or not. It should be scoped to see what it's doing.

What wire color is pin 24? I think it might be Orange, which seems to connect to input7. It looks like input7 has the protection diodes. What does that signal look like on the scope? Then how does that signal compare at the other side of the op-amp as it goes to the STM? At some point I expect you'll see some ringing, or you'll see it doesn't quite pull down below 1V or something like that.

I believe you are looking at the pin 24 signal connected to the ADC input, which is the RPM signal. Is the 12V from the sim as noted in the schematic or did you knock that down a bit?

Oh, also I wonder what your power supply looks like. Can you set the scope to the fastest it can sample, the set the trigger to like 4.8V, and see if it triggers on any dips. Look at the 5V at the 5V screw terminal. Then look at it at the extra PCB headers. See if you can see it dipping anywhere. We may have a soft supply.

Is your USB coming from a laptop that runs off the battery? If not we may also have a GND loop issue.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Jared,
Did you see the photos of the wave forms on my scope?
USB is from my desk top computer.
I looked for ripple on my power supply but it's about as steady as it gets, other than from a battery.
The circuit is designed to drive an input pin on MS, but it's not connected to MS, it's connected to Discovery.
The orange wire is IAT. Signal wire is connected directly to PA5.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

I believe you reference this http://rusefi.com/forum/download/file.php?id=545 picture. It appears to be showing the input signal as seen via the STM. However it appears you are not seeing that from the dev console, is that correct? Is the low part of that wave form below 1V? I think that dot on the side indicates the 0V reference and it looks like it's getting really close to that 0V point, but I want to make sure I'm reading the scope correctly. What is the high voltage of that wave form? Sorry if these questions seem really basic, the basics are often where the issues reside. I'm trying to minimize assumptions on me end so I can provide more accurate suggestions.

Is there a way to verify the input pin is still good, for example, can your generator hold it high, then can we see that it's registers as a solid high in software? Then same for a low?

Sorry, I didn't see the captions for the pictures. On the one titles "Wave form at Discovery" I see it notes 1.47V. What does that mean? Does that mean the low side is 0V and the high is 1.47V? If so that likely indicates that the signal is not being pulled high enough. I seem to recall a guaranteed high is not registers until around 1.5V.

It seems the scope is registering at 1/2 the real voltage. For example when it notes 5.9V from the signal generator, I'm expecting about 12V. Then after the 5V conditioning, it claims 2.24V, but I expect 5V. So I think the 1.49V is really the expected 2.98V. If it is really bouncing nicely between 0V and 3V, then the problem has to either be the input pin, or the software.

russian, Could this be a simple issue with software? I thin he's showing a good clean signal at the PA5 input pin. Is there a way we can test the signal is making it into the software correctly? How do we test if it's a software issue instead vs. a pin issue? Can we move the input signal to something like PC5 and try a different port?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I just don't see how this could be a software issue! If we feed PA5 from PD1 it works, and the connection it purely electrical - the software does not know that the signal is coming of PD1, all the software knows that there is incoming signal on PA5. If a stimulator is electronically identical to PD1 self-stimulator, I am expecting it to be handled exactly the same. If it is not handled the same way, to me it sounds like something is different with this signal.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Robert, did you have a chance to scope the PD1 signal? If set the same way, how close are the pictures from PD1 self-stimulator and your stimulator?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

as far as i got the signal from pd1, from level shifter and at pa6 is all the same..
at the same time, since feed from pd1 works fine, this means that the pa6 is still alive? weird stuff...
i'd remove that capacitor from the level converter, check with the scope if voltage level is suffiient.
what happens in the console when you remove everything from pa6? usually observing this stuff under various conditions gives some hints through some minor flucuations in the behaviour of the circuitry. so just be attentive with these observations...
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

puff wrote:as far as i got the signal from pd1, from level shifter and at pa6 is all the same..
I'm sorry I am confused. Why do you mention PA6? We are not using PA6 here. We've used to use PC6 which is now burned, and we now have switched to PA5 with a special edition of the firmware.

The signal cannot be the same judging by the difference in the software reaction to that signal.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

my bad. meant pa5.
as far as i got, according to the scope it was the same… the devconsole related code streams data from pa5?
could it be solid logic1, but for some reason it sees these grounding spikes?
anyway, i'd try to change frequency/duty cycles to see what's going on… just connect the scope to the junction at discovery (pa6, scope probe and logic shifter from the stimulator) and compare both, the output on devconsole and on the scope while changing the signal…
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

It looks like we are hitting a wall here.

Just to confirm & reiterate: the problem right now is that using this
http://i.imgur.com/pI2ePiO.png
schematics we cannot get a stable stimulator for rusEfi? Right?

Hell, how about I just solder myself same stimulator? Am I right that the frequency is controlled by two potentiometers - 2M and 50K?

Robert, can you list all the component of this stimulator?
C1 & С4 0.01uF
C3 0.33 uF
R3&R8 1K
R4 1.3K
R9 100R
U1 LM555C

Have I missed anything?

I am tempted to split this thread and extract all the stuff related to this stimulator, would that be fine?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Here's a clue.

Discovery is not plugged into the boards.

I have a ground jumper from my 5 volt power supply to a ground pin on Discovery so they have a common ground.

With PA5 connected to PD1 and my scope ground on the same ground pin on Discovery that I have my ground jumper on and the probe on PA5 I have a crisp square wave and RPM is very steady at ~1200.

If I connect PA5 to my conditioned PIP signal, no changes to the scope connection, I get a nice crisp square wave and RPM responds to my changes in pot settings. It is quite steady at low RPM but gets jumpier as the revs climb, not completely out of control though.

If I remove the scope connections, RPM is all over the place.

A question about Dev Consol.

Sometimes when I open it it will give me a dialog box of "Com1", which it won't connect to. If I close it and re-open, sometimes several times, eventually it will give me the option of Com1 or Com4. It will connect to Com 4.

If I unplug the USB cables from Discovery I have to close the consol and re-open it to re-connect. Is this normal?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:A question about Dev Consol.
Sometimes when I open it it will give me a dialog box of "Com1", which it won't connect to. If I close it and re-open, sometimes several times, eventually it will give me the option of Com1 or Com4. It will connect to Com 4.
If I unplug the USB cables from Discovery I have to close the consol and re-open it to re-connect. Is this normal?
This is a known issue - https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/tickets/46/
1) close dev console
2) hit 'reset' on the discovery
3) wait till the windows 'device connected' sound if you have this sound
4) open dev console
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Thanks.

Update.

Working on the theory that the signals to Discovery need some sort of filtering a grabbed a capacitor out of my bins and with the scope disconnected and RPM all over the place I connected the cap between PA5 and ground. RPM settled right down. I don't know what the value of the cap is but the markings look like:

T
.01Z
Z5U
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Wait a second. Are you saying you have just fixed the problem?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I don't think I'd go as far as to say it is fixed, but it looks like it is a step in the right direction.

I'm in over my head here, just trying to see what might work. Time for someone with formal training in electronics to offer an opinion.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by puff »

i have no formal training in electronics, but do you mean to say that scope was acting like sort of a filter?
is your stim now working stable both at low and at high revs? anyway, congrats!
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Revs from the stim are better, but far from perfect. My analog inputs are very jumpy. We may have a clue as to what needs to be fixed, but it is far from fixed.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

One step at a time - let's finish with the revs before we go to analog gauges.

Do you have any capacitors with known values? The one which worked for me for this kind of noise was marked 103 - that's a standard marking. (103 is 0.01 uF)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I'm pretty sure I have a few of them kicking around. What would you like me to try?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

I want you to try a 103 capacitor between PA5 and GND. The same way your unknown capacitor is mounted, instead of the unknown one.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by kb1gtt »

How do you get 12V, is that a separate power supply, a battery, or perhaps the 5V from the desktop is all you have? A jumpy analog signal makes me suspicious of the power supply and a ground loop.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

Major breakthrough!

I measured the cap with my Fluke 87 and it showed 0.0097uf, so I assume the .01Z means 0.01uf. I was experimenting moving it around from PIP to the other analog inputs on Discovery. I found it really wanted a short connection to ground. If I used a jumper wire the effect was a lot less. Then, just on a whim I put the cap across the +5 and gnd inputs on the analog board.

Everything settled right down, even the analog gauges.

My RPM is still a bit jumpy from ~4500 up, compared to the self generated signals at that speed, but it may be legitimate from the 555 timer.

What's next?
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

Now I've forgotten where are we :)

You were concerned about trigger signal frequency. Currently trigger is a 6/0 toothed wheel, did you say it would need to be a 3/0 toothed wheel?

Did we try the tachometer on a real vehicle at all? Do we want to?
What do we have working and what do you want to get working? :)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I made some observations.

With PIP frequency ranging between 49.91 hz and 50.5 hz. Consol was showing ~1135 to ~1150 RPM. It should be showing ~998.2RPM to ~1010 RPM. I don't know why we have that discrepancy.

With TPS voltage at 2.505v, full scale of 5.01v and zero scale of 0.000v, Consol is showing ~48.53% to ~48.72%. Should be 49.88%, so that's pretty close.

With IAT voltage at 2.505v, full scale at 4.35v, zero scale at -0.010v Consol is showing ~88.23F to ~88.57F. With a 16.2 ballast resistor I calculate that the pot resistance was ~21.99k which relates to ~90F considering the Ford spec of 248F @ 1.18k, 104F @ 16.5k and 50F @ 58.75k. That's also pretty close. Same thing for CLT.

With O2 voltage at 2.505v, full scale at 5.01v, zero scale at -0.013v Consol is showing ~14.21 to 14.25. The old Tech Edge wide band with the NTK UEGO I am using is not linear, so I'm attaching the transfer functions that I use. I wanted to send you a link to it but this is pretty old stuff and the link seems to be dead.

So, apart from the RPM discrepancy and fine tuning O2 it looks like we are pretty good with our inputs. I suppose the next step would be to get Tuner Studio set up so we can have some means of tuning things.

Oh yes. At this point I only seem to have one injector bank working and no indicator for fuel pump on.
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Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

tsinfo command would tell you current pinout for Tuner Studio via an UART device, do you have one?
showconfig should show you fuel pump and injector pins, do you see any signals there? Fuel pump is on for 10 seconds after reset and if engine is spinning.

There is the TS .ini file in the same archive where you get the firmware.

Did you order a new discovery? Ideally you would want to use latest firmware version and it has the standard pinout. I guess I need to make trigger input pins configurable, but that's not as easy as configurable outputs.
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I made an error connecting the outputs on the injector board. I do have SPOUT on PC15 (inj-06) and Fuel Pump on PC13 (inj-05) but I don't seem to have any signals on PB9 (inj-01, or PE3 (inj-03). I checked for signals on the other output terminals but I see nothing.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

showconfig confirms the pinput
2014-04-10 07_02: EngineState: injection 0 @ PB9
2014-04-10 07_02: EngineState: injection 1 @ PE3

dev console shows that there are signals
Image

By default, @ rpm 1200 I get 0.28v on PB9 - that's because it's a low duty-cycle PWM. If I hit it with set_whole_fuel_map 50 I get a 1.5v on PB9. Can you reproduce this?

PE3 on the other hand in fact does not show any life with your engine_type. That's strange, I will investigate this tonight. I've tried "set_engine_type 3" just to check - and PE3 was showing life there, so this looks to be a software bug.

New discovery?
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I would prefer to use my existing Discovery and work the kinks out on the simulator just in case I screw something else up. If this presents a major problem I'll order a new one.

I tried your request and I get what you get, except I get it on both PB9 and PE3. Plugged into both boards with my PIP signal I get LED indicators for fuel pump, SPOUT and both injector channels. Can't explain that.

Can we attack the strange RPM reading?. At 60 hz input I should read 1200 RPM, but I'm getting ~1365. The error is in the same proportion if I am on self generated signal or my simulator signal.
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:I would prefer to use my existing Discovery and work the kinks out on the simulator just in case I screw something else up. If this presents a major problem I'll order a new one.
This way you are either stuck with that custom firmware version or you would need to compile newer versions with input remap on your side.
E4ODnut wrote:Can we attack the strange RPM reading?. At 60 hz input I should read 1200 RPM, but I'm getting ~1365. The error is in the same proportion if I am on self generated signal or my simulator signal.
I am pretty sure that I am getting a pretty crisp 1200 RPM with self-stimulation, I can double-check this tonight.

I've just realized that I probably have a potential explanation for the 13% error: it's about how precisely default configuration of discovery is. See http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=460 I have these components purchased but I never had time to solder them. I am not considering this a major problem because I hope that the error is consistent thus input error is compensated by output error.

In order to confirm this theory, can you measure the frequency on PD1? I would expect it to be not 60Hz but something like 55Hz or 66Hz
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by E4ODnut »

I'm OK with the custom firmware on the simulator until it shows that it should work on the real engine, as long as you are. It's more work on your part, but I really prefer to have things working on the simulator before I try it on the engine.

Discovery all by itself on self stim so there is no outside influence, readings on Dev Consol;

rpm 500 shows ~499 to ~500 RPM @ ~21.9 to ~21.9 hz. Should be 25hz. ~14% error
Default 1200 RPM shows ~1199 to ~1200 RPM @ ~52.3 to ~ 52.5 hz. Should be 60 hz. ~ 15% error
rpm 2500 shows 2500+_? RPM @~107.9 to ~108.2 hz. Should be 125 hz. ~ 16% error
rpm 5000 shows 5000 +_? RPM @ ~210 to ~212.4 hz. Should be 250 hz. ~ 18% error
Robert
1995 Ford E-150, 300 CID I6 E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Winnebago Elante 33 RQ, Ford 460 CID V8, E4OD, Custom MS1-Extra
1992 Bayliner 3288, Twin Ford 351CID Windsor V8s, Custom MS1-Extra
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 488 CID V10 5 spd. MS3 (in progress)
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AndreyB
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Re: 1995 Ford E-150

Post by AndreyB »

E4ODnut wrote:I'm OK with the custom firmware on the simulator until it shows that it should work on the real engine, as long as you are. It's more work on your part, but I really prefer to have things working on the simulator before I try it on the engine.
Custom firmware not because simulator, custom firmware because PC6 is dead and that means one file has to be manually adjusted for PA5 instead of PC6. Do you remember right click menu with 'SVN Update...' and there is a clean_build.bat batch file to compile the firmware - can you try that? The compiled binary would be in build folder.
E4ODnut wrote: Discovery all by itself on self stim so there is no outside influence, readings on Dev Consol;
rpm 500 shows ~499 to ~500 RPM @ ~21.9 to ~21.9 hz. Should be 25hz. ~14% error
Default 1200 RPM shows ~1199 to ~1200 RPM @ ~52.3 to ~ 52.5 hz. Should be 60 hz. ~ 15% error
rpm 2500 shows 2500+_? RPM @~107.9 to ~108.2 hz. Should be 125 hz. ~ 16% error
rpm 5000 shows 5000 +_? RPM @ ~210 to ~212.4 hz. Should be 250 hz. ~ 18% error
Consistent error tells me that it is... good. It just shows that times flies slower of faster for discovery without the real time clock crystal. I would not have time to solder the RTC crystal till around 22nd of April.
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