81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

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Yuri_Y2K
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81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

Howdy everyone :)
this is my first project of this magnitude, so please bear with me.
I'm working with an 81 yamaha xv920, and i'm tired of dealing with the old carb and old TCI ignition system. so that being mentioned, i want to convert it to rusEFI but i don't know where to start with. I have the frankenstein board that you would get when the kickstarter was going around a few years back. So the only sensor that is built in to the bike is a pair of pick-up coils that feeds a signal in to the TCI unit which in exchange feeds the coil and fires the spark plug. other then that, no other electronic components on the motor.
so here is my question, what do i need to populate the board, what other additional modules will i need? i want to run a wideband O2 sensors (2 of them for right and left cylinders) 2 injectors, a MAP sensor and a Throttle position sensor. what other sensors should i include? and what is needed to populate the board to make it work with those sensors?
Thank You, and sorry for dumb questions
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by AndreyB »

Welcome!

http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Frankenstein_board has all the links you need to assembled Frankenstein - it has Bill Of Material link (BOM) and the forum thread link. I can sell you a kit of most/all needed parts if that would make it easier.

Let's wait for somebody smarter to respond about if it's possible to use the pick-up coils for trigger input, another big question is what to use for injector and where to put it. There is a couple of bike threads here maybe those would provide ideas.

MAP sensor would probably be the easiest part

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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

thank you, i will go thrum the BoM and come back with questions from there:)))
for intake, i was thinking of something among these lines
Honda VTX intake
Honda VTX intake
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this is for an 1800cc bike, so i will have to find smaller injectors but those units already come with a TPS and a MAP sensor :) im also more then certain, im gonna have to cut and weld the intake tubing to make it fit, but ill deal with that in the winter when im not riding)

also, because it is an air cooled motor, any suggestions what i can use for a temp sensor and a knock sensor?
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

Do you have a schematic? I'm not sure how or if the pickup coils could be used. One items that needs close attention is the fuel pump. Often bikes have small alternators or small electric generators. The fuel pump uses significant power and you need to make sure you are generating enough amps to cover the power demands. As well the alternator on a bike is often tied to other systems that might be removed when you go EFI.

To me it seems you might want to try something expendable first. Perhaps a generator or lawn mower or something from the junk yard with a Briggs and scrap iron on it. Your going to have to fabricate some way to create the fuel pressure, and you'll also need to get all the signals working like MAP and crank angle. You might want to do something similar to what I started and haven't completed found here http://jaredharvey.com/Files/projects/Engine_control/snow_blower/snow_blower.htm

Welcome along and I hope it goes well.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

i cant wait to see that snowblower work, cold starts should be easier and hopefully more power :D
anyways, i got several manuals to the bike, so i can provide schematics:)
the dual pickup coils should read at 124 to 186 ohms at 20 C. and they are bolted to the engine cover. so you think im SOL with using those? makes me wonder if i can machine the flywheel for a 60-2 sensor (but they are kinda bulky) or something equivalent, any suggestions? also im more then certain i can make something work for cam position sensors, i got some older audi CPS sensors floating around :)
i was trying to find the amperage output of the system in amps or watts with no luck, the only things i was able to find was that the battery is 12v 20 Ah and the charging system output is 14.3 to 15.3 volts at 2k rpm. Ive posted in our Virago forum hoping someone may have the answer to the amperage question and if the system is upgradable to a higher output. but from what i gathered, i should be good up to about 25 amp. Plus, i can always convert to LED's and HID for the headlight bulb to decrease the existing system draw.
what's the average power requirement for a fully assembled rusEFI?
also, what do you guys think of using these for individual cylinder temp sensors? http://www.amazon.co.uk/temperature-sensor-air-cooled-engine-thread/dp/B00910HAD0 they fit right around the sparkplug and are comonly used on vw type 1 aircooled motors, but unfortunetly i dont know how much power they requir to operate :(

anyways, here are some pix, let me know if i can provide more info on the bike:))
Thank You guys:) im starting to get excited and a bit terrified with all the research and modification i will have to perform to make this work, but benefits of EFI are just way too appealing to me:)
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

I can see a couple items of interest in that schematic, however it's very hard to read as it's poor resolution. I see the alternator and it appears that would function as is. So that appears to be good. Your ignition appears it may come with a igniter module, and we may be able to control that. If not I may suggest a J701 or equiv, but I'll need to learn more about your current igniter before I suggest a change. I'm sure we can make it spark, so I'll put the to the side for now.

That temperature sensor is probably a fairly standard thermistor, and it probably would interface with our standard temperature sensor approach. However we would need to find the curve. It should be something like ohms vs temperature. Can you find a resistance vs temperature curve for this device?

In the picture of the alternator, is the pickup coil shown? I think I see it at the same level as the alternator winding's. I'm also not sure this is really an alternator. I kind of question of these pictures are correct. The schematic shows 5 wires going to the alternator, but the exploded view picture shows 2. It looks like there are magnets in the alternator drum, so I think it's a generator or magneto not an alternator. What ever it is it will probably work as a battery charging mechanism. What I'm not sure about is the ignition pick up. What does the pickup trigger on? It appears it's at the same level as the magnets, but it's also on the outside. So I'm not sure if it's a coil with magnetic field being passed by to generate a pulse, or if it has some other thing hanging out there that functions as a trigger. I suspect it's a VR, but the ohms are kind of low for a modern VR, so perhaps it has a magnet that flys and creates a pulse. Spark may work as it, and you may only need fuel control. You might want to find a way to add sensors such that the existing system all works as is, and you are simply replacing the carb. For a fuel only system, I wonder if we can get the RPM out of a MAP signal. If so that code doesn't currently exist and would need some development.

I've measured rusEFI to use .125 amps when fully powered with the LCD and such running. The 5V can provide over 2A, which can be provided for external devices. However you probably will end up around that .125A range or less. Turning some things off like the LCD can save some current as well. The LCD back light along uses something like 20mA. The fuel pump and injectors are by far the major loads. LED lights will certainly free up many watts to be used else where. Your WO2 may use significant heat as well. Those heaters can pull significant watts.

Do you have a fuel pump selected? That would be handy for figuring out what your pump watts might be.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

here is a link to the repair manual i don't know how to take an image from a PDF file other then screenshot and paint, so this may be easier way to look up info. on pick-up coils, im not certain, they may have integrated small magnets in to the flywheel just for that purpose. But im asking people that are more familiar with these machines:)

we can get an RPM signal from pre existing setup, the bike came stock with a fully electronic tachometer, so tapping into that should not be too difficult :)
pick-up coil
pick-up coil
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the little bracket above the magneto are the pickup coils

Im being told that the charging system puts out about 400w, which would place us at about 27 to 33 amp. The way the charging system works is, the flywheel with internal magnets spins around the 18 pos stator. the stator has 3 wires going to regulator/rectifier which in exchange feeds the rest of the system in DC current. (another source just told me this: rectifier - capacity 16A. reg - ~14v @ >3000 rpm) this sounds a bit too low for me, as the bulbs consume more then that produces.

we can get an RPM signal from pre existing setup, the bike came stock with electronic tachometer, so tapping into that should not be too difficult :) i don't think it's possible to get an RPM reading from a MAP sensor

i have to look in to the temperature/ohms on the head temp sensor, it may come down to having that sensor and manually measuring the outputs at different temperature ranges and creating a chart... :-s

i'm still looking in to a low ampare fuel pump that's not $300 :-S

so i need to find low ampere: Fuel pump and O2 sensors. from my understanding, the ones that don't have a preheat element are not all that good/accurate? and i think standard motorcycle injectors should not draw that much current compared to automotive. and it doesn't sound like the rusEFI consumes that much, so thats a relief:))
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

Good to hear, and yes that tach signals is good enough for fuel predictions. Sounds like your existing spark and charging systems can remain untouched, and you are simply replacing the mechanical carb with EFI and taping into the tach. Minimal electrical modifications. Does your battery have screw terminals? If so that can probably be used for power. I guess we'll have to tap into your key signal some how.

O2 heaters make it closed loop faster, as well the WO2's are often used as temperature sensors. If you place it close to the head, it will minimize the need for electrical heating, however if you place it to close, it will get to hot and fatigue, and shorten it's life. So it's kind of a balancing act. Hot but not to hot. As well to much use of the electric heater also causes fatigue. You won't find WO2's that do not have heaters. The heaters are critical for WO2's. Narrow band used to come with out heaters.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

that makes life a bit simpler:) eventually i would like to replace the ignition module on this bike with something more up to date, eventually i would like to produce a triple spark with custom ignition timing map, but one thing at a time:))

so sensors list: 2 head temp sensors, MAP and TPS sensors are built in to throttle body, at least 1 O2 sensor (there is a X-pipe in the exhaust system, i might be able to integrate it in there to save some amperage and $$, maybe not as accurate as having individual bank O2's, but oh well, some more digging is in order on this one). Still will have to figure out cam position sensor, which shouldn't be too complicated. now any suggestions about a knock sensor and is it necessary?

I appreciate all your help, thank you :) :D :D
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

I believe tach as CAM will work good enough, but russian would have to confirm.

About WO2, if you don't have emissions regulations, it's common to use a thermocouple to determine if you are getting to hot. That might be one way to avoid the watts of an WO2 heater.

Individual O2's would be better if you can get them. An O2 has a fairly long delay which makes them very slow to respond. Putting 2 cyl's on one pipe will not allow you to determine which cylc is wrong. It will force you to take an average and hope for the best.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by abecedarian »

This ought to be interesting....
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

good point with WO2 sensors, another thing i have to do some digging:)) And one thing with this V-twin is that the rear cylinder gets slightly more fuel to increase cooling of the cylinder because of how placement of the engine, it doesn't get enough airflow.
something that crossed my mind is actually using 2 cam position sensor, the reason behind this is that the cams are chain driven and these chains have a tendency of stretching which causes slightly different timing on each individual cylinder. After some digging around it looks like ill be able to mount a small earth magnet inside the camshaft sprocket and use a hall effect sensor for a trigger on each cylinder head.

Russian, any input on this whole project would be appreciated:))

abecedarian, i think so too, it doesn't look like anyone else has done this type of a project with this efi/bike combo :)))
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

just a small update, this is what triggers the pick-up coils, i don't know if there is more then one of them and if these are magnetic or just metal strips, waiting for an answer on that one :)
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

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Yuri_Y2K wrote:...
abecedarian, i think so too, it doesn't look like anyone else has done this type of a project with this efi/bike combo :)
Well, I've a few things I could have / should have said, but it's always fun looking at car guys trying to figure out motorcycles, which they rarely can do.

The biggest difference is most street MC's... at least those without "automotive" type alternators... have permanent magnet AC alternators and NOT MAGNETO's. Some are 1 phase, most are 3 phase.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by abecedarian »

Yuri_Y2K wrote:just a small update, this is what triggers the pick-up coils, i don't know if there is more then one of them and if these are magnetic or just metal strips, waiting for an answer on that one :)
It's just a metal strip and you have only one on the flywheel.

I'd explain how the TCI works, but it'll be more fun listening to the expert.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

abecedarian wrote:
Yuri_Y2K wrote:just a small update, this is what triggers the pick-up coils, i don't know if there is more then one of them and if these are magnetic or just metal strips, waiting for an answer on that one :)
It's just a metal strip and you have only one on the flywheel.

I'd explain how the TCI works, but it'll be more fun listening to the expert.

Lol, you are evil)
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

I'm not sure why abecedarian likes being negative, but he's often negative. I guess that's just who he is. On a good note he's occasionally offered some good insights and good information, but getting the info out of him has bee a bit of a challenge. Perhaps you'll have some good luck as your project is bike orientated. His is a bike as well and he knows quite a bit about bikes.

I make no claim of being a bike guy so bare with me if I miss something. Also I have no idea what TCI is. I'm assuming that's an acronym. Does it have a long version?

Using fuel for cooling is a common approach, it's one reason why many people don't like O2 sensors, you run it rich for cooling purposes. O2's are typically used for emissions purposes or to learn if you are running too lean like when your fuel pump is too small and can't deliver the fuel. I know many of the older bikes or pretty much any bike without a battery used a magneto. Mine is a magneto even though it happens to have a battery, but yours has an alternator. For mine it uses a magneto as it was consider important to remain reliable. However other technologies have proven to be reliable enough for bike applications, so they are less common in modern bikes. I'm not sure when the transitions away from magneto's started or if it has ended yet. A magneto basically means the permanent magnet is what directly drives the spark, when the magnet passes the coil, it generates a spark. It does not need a battery to do this. In your case the battery stores energy in the battery, then fires when it wants. I guess easier control over the spark advance combined with emissions regulations is probably what caused the transition.

Any how, I don't see a need to get into the CAM signals yet. As far as I know the tach should work fine for fuel only. CAM's would be good for spark, but might as well baby step it. Replacing the carbs is a task by itself. I have no objections if you want to try to capture the CAM signals, but I think it's an easier path to capture the tach.

Do you know the fuel flow required for your WOT max load? If you know the fuel you need to deliver or could deliver, we can make some predictions of how many watts the fuel will require to maintain pressure at that flow rate. After that we could apply a generic efficiency to get a ball park energy requirement for the fuel pump.

About injector watts, I'll assume it's high Z, so about 1A when in on, which at 14V is 14W if you are 100% duty cycle. Then for 2 injectors would be 28 watts. I don't know if you'll need 100% duty cycle, often you aren't WOT for prolonged periods of time. You need to maintain the average power, so even if you over draw but only for short bursts at WOT, you can draw from the battery to get over the hurdle. I wouldn't do that, but it probably could be done. I prefer to have excess and to only get up to about 80% from peak demand. Then at idle it would be perhaps a 5mS pulse per 75mS. So about 7% which is rounded up to about 2 watts. As well it would vary for other RPM's. It's possible that at certain RPM's you'll over draw the alternators abilities. If it's really 400 + watts, at 3kRPM, what is it at 1kRPM? You probably have an excess, but who knows if you have an excess for the entire RPM range.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

abecedarian wrote:It's just a metal strip and you have only one on the flywheel.
I'd explain how the TCI works, but it'll be more fun listening to the expert.
come on man, share your wisdom with us:) i can diag and fix just about anything on a 4 stroke bike from mid 70's to late 80s, but i was never able to understand how some of these modules work, TCI being one of them. so your enlightenment would be appreciated :D

TCI is Transistor Coil Ignition or Transistor Controlled Ignition, past that, i have never messed with it :)

i'm gonna have to get back to this in a few days, something came up :-S but any thoughts or input is always apreciated 8-)
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by AndreyB »

Yuri_Y2K wrote:And one thing with this V-twin is that the rear cylinder gets slightly more fuel to increase cooling of the cylinder because of how placement of the engine, it doesn't get enough airflow.
this would be easy to implement, there is actually a request for this feature since a while ago already - https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/tickets/88/

The guy with a one cylinder has proven that it's possible to convert a bike to rusEfi, but if that would be me I would break the conversion into phases and attach those one by one. Fuel and only then spark, or wideband and only then fuel. Too easy to loose focus with so many small sub-projects!
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by abecedarian »

To start... I'm neither evil or hard to get information from. I'm a pragmatist with a twisted funny bone. ;)

I could go into a long diatribe discussing how some bikes used high and low speed ignition windings on the stator and two other windings to generate CDI signals, relying on the phasing between the various AC signals to control when spark occurs... but that's not relevant here.

One of the keys to understanding TCI and other similar systems comes from realizing the tooth on the flywheel is wider than the sensors detecting it. This means the controller gets one pulse when the tooth enters the sensor's area and another pulse, albeit opposite in polarity to the first pulse, when the tooth leaves the sensor's area. The first pulse lets the controller know an ignition event is about to take place; the second pulse is a "drop dead" signal that fires a coil if it hasn't already fired, and should coincide with the static timing of the ignition system. What happens inside the TCI module is a bit more convoluted, but essentially it is using RPM to figure out when to fire a coil.

One possible method is for it to use the voltage generated by the sensor to determine what the advance should be: as RPM increases so does the voltage output from the sensor. A higher voltage, representative of higher RPM, would therefore trigger the ignition system to fire earlier thus causing advance. And, in kind, as the voltage drops, the system would trigger later, thus retarding the ignition, up to the point where the tooth itself leaving the sensor's window would cause a coil to fire. Likely, the VR's signal is "clamped" to some level such that maximum advance occurs at some RPM above which, although the sensor's output voltage is increasing with RPM, no additional advance would occur. I'll leave it to the EE's to contemplate the necessary circuitry, but having opened up the ignition module on my motorcycle, I can say that although transistors imply digital operation there's very much an analog component to the system. ;)

Another method, whilst not being likely to have been used at the time, is to have a microprocessor simply get the signals, run a timer and do the math to work out position, then fire the respective coil. The go-to 8051 or comparable at the time would have been more than capable of doing this. Freescale has an EVM for small engines that goes a little bit into this theory, and other vendors such as Ignitech have developed fully digital systems that emulate CDI and are fully programmable.

Unfortunately, because the tooth is wider than the sensor, the sensor's signal isn't a reliable input for a VR chip like the MAX992x as they require a fairly clean positive-going-negative transition through zero volts to give an output. The stock VR output looks somewhat like the following, but please note the signal could be inverted depending on how the sensor itself is wired, and is probably not sharp lines and instead rather curved like a sinusoidal wave:

Code: Select all

    /\
___/  \____    ____________________________
           \  /
            \/
... instead of:

Code: Select all

    /\
___/  \    ________________________________
       \  /
        \/
... which is what the MAX chip would expect.

So, I would have reservations using this to trigger fuel injection only without some sort of conditioning circuitry.

Triggering off of a coil signal is a possibility, but we'd need to figure out exactly how your coils are triggered- i.e. CDI-like pulse to the (+) terminal or switched (-) terminal. If you have a higher-resolution image of the bike's wiring, you can email it to me at abecedarian01@gmail.com. Alternatively, it might be possible to trigger off of a "tach" signal feeding your cluster, but then again we'd need to know the voltage levels present on that wire.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

The frank boards are 12V friendly. I assume the tach is 12V, so I would expect it can be put into the standard circuit. If you try to capture the signal from the coil, beware the primary side of the coil spikes to around 400V-ish. You have to pay close attention when sniffing a coil. Perhaps there is a lower voltage signal that could be sniffed on the other side of the igniter transistor.

That long sensor thing is kind of interesting. Sounds like it would be well positioned for hall input. I agree the MAX992X chips would have trouble properly decoding that signal. I wonder how that type of signal is typically captured. It's going into the OEM computer some how.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by abecedarian »

TCI module has 10 connections to it: front cylinder pulser = 2 wires; rear cylinder pulser = 2 wires; front coil = 2 wires; rear coil = 2 wires; power = 2 wires- +12V & chassis ground.
Coils are inductive-type and have their (+) terminal supplied 12v via the ignition switch, so tach is supplied via one coil's (-) side like typical aftermarket automotive tachometers.

While not exactly what is present on the bike, Freescale has an example of how a single cylinder DCI / microcontroller based ignition system could be assembled. Basically, it incorporates a section to condition the VR signals, an analog section to provide basic signals during cranking and fail-safe, and a microcontroller section to handle normal operation. Reference schematic is included and would be moderately easy to adapt to handling two VR's and a different microcontroller.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

Thank you guys, I'll get back to this this upcoming Monday )
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

well, digging this up from the grave:) still in planning stages and now trying to get a friend involved that knows much more about this then i do:)

but now i got a question, looks like a new version of the board came out, what are the differences between the 0.1 and 0.4 hardware/software vise?
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by kb1gtt »

The Frankenstein board is still at V0.1. The Frankenso board has had several changes, which can be found here https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/hardware/frankenso/known_issues.txt I think all the changes that happened to Frankenso, do not apply to Frankenstein.

There have been many changes and improvements to the software which should all be compatible with Frankenstein. If you grab the latest and greatest software, you should be good.
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by AndreyB »

Yuri_Y2K wrote: what are the differences between the 0.1 and 0.4 hardware/software vise?
no differences between software. main hardware changes are the SD card pinout fix and usb/ttl chip pinout fix.
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Yuri_Y2K
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Re: 81 Yamaha XV920, where to start?

Post by Yuri_Y2K »

thank you:)
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