Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
JPh
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Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

My engine uses this flywheel pattern :
IMG_20200326_182209.jpg
IMG_20200326_182209.jpg (2.71 MiB) Viewed 933 times
It's a 60 -2 but with a long male tooth.
I read Renault uses it to detect inverted wiring on the crank VR sensor.
JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE

Post by JPh »

Here is the VR sensor signal and the crank signal of MRE :
Renault sync.png
Renault sync.png (5.91 KiB) Viewed 932 times
My understanding is that this arrangement causes tooth N°1 to be abnormaly long (It begins earlier).
Last edited by JPh on Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE

Post by JPh »

This is the diagram of OEM ECU :
2021-04-11 09_57_07-MR358CLIO1.pdf - Adobe Reader.png
2021-04-11 09_57_07-MR358CLIO1.pdf - Adobe Reader.png (13.1 KiB) Viewed 932 times
It says TDC cyl 1/4 is 84° from tooth 1 at tooth 14.
TDC 2/3 is 30 teeth further (1 tooth is 6°) so it will be tooth 44.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE

Post by JPh »

TS trigger settings are :
TS Trigger window.png
TS Trigger window.png (26.46 KiB) Viewed 931 times
JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE

Post by JPh »

TS ignition settings (FOR TEST PURPOSE) are :
TS Ignition settings.png
TS Ignition settings.png (37.21 KiB) Viewed 931 times
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE

Post by JPh »

This is the result for coil 4 (green trace) :
ign sync.png
ign sync.png (5.71 KiB) Viewed 931 times
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AndreyB
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE

Post by AndreyB »

I am failing to read between the lines, please state more dirertly:

"I am sharing a success story" or "I have a problem I need help"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)
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OrchardPerformance
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by OrchardPerformance »

Wait, your trying to use 60-2 trigger setting with a wheel that does not give a pattern for 60-2?
I think this may be the route of your random sparking behaviour.
I have a feeling this may need a special trigger setting of that high tooth filing into a double -2 gap.
Otherwise your trigger is really 60+1-1.
Now keeping MRE and Proteus in stock in the UK, PM or slack for details.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

@Andrey my purpose is to share on the forum some useful information for other users. For the discussion about the results I think slack is better and only report the result on the forum. Otherwise there will be some posts with erroneous conclusions which can lead others into errors.
Last edited by JPh on Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

@Simon Matthew posted some information about this patern and the use of 60 - 2. He thought it could work. I restarted the tests because I'm in the way to use MRE intensively on the car and use free lock down time to prepare tuning phase. What is curious, I started the car last year with MRE had had not such a problem.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by AndreyB »

In my opinion it's currently very unclear what exactly is being shared and what kind of help or collaboration (if any) is desired.
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JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

What has been shared :
Flywheel patern for these engines.
VR signal obtained with this unusual pattern
OEM TDC position relative to sync point
Behavior of MRE with some seetings available

What help needed :
Does the anormal first tooth make any trouble in timing accuracy?
Does this wheel need a special trigger decoder?
Understand engine sniffer
Last edited by JPh on Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by AndreyB »

Just a reminder that we have https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/988

"60/2 vs 60/2 VW mess"

i.e. you probably want to at least try the other trigger as well

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/All-Supported-Triggers#vw-602
and
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/All-Supported-Triggers#602

in rusEFI please execute "enable trigger_details" command which would get you more or less following text in "messages" area while you would be cranking

Code: Select all

2021-04-07_16_24_50_902: EngineState: TRG  rpm=1378 time=66 index=0: gap=0.122 expected from 6.375 to 14.000 error=No
2021-04-07_16_24_50_912: EngineState: TRG duty 0.000000000 0
2021-04-07_16_24_50_912: EngineState: TRG  rpm=1378 time=66 index=0: gap=1.557 expected from 0.349 to 0.980 error=No
2021-04-07_16_24_50_982: EngineState: TRG duty 0.000000000 0
2021-04-07_16_24_50_982: EngineState: TRG  rpm=1378 time=66 index=0: gap=0.635 expected from 0.349 to 0.980 error=No
2021-04-07_16_24_50_982: EngineState: TRG duty 0.000000000 0
please post your "enable trigger_details" results here
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JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

I tried both 60-2 trigger patterns but didn't make same measurements for both so no conclusions for now.
I have a complaint about the visual of the vw pattern picture : it looks like the renault pattern but is not because it's high long tooth only.
Will try to give you sniffer results this evening when coming back from work.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

trigger detail messages.txt
(38.93 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

2021-04-12_18_36_56_995rpm_1134_maf_0.0.png
2021-04-12_18_36_56_995rpm_1134_maf_0.0.png (31.85 KiB) Viewed 847 times
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by AndreyB »

JPh wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:24 pm
trigger detail messages.txt
Gap in range.

There is a complaint about "visual of the vw pattern picture : it looks like the renault pattern but is not because it's high long tooth only."

Are there any other complaints?
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JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

About the "complaint" : for newcomers it's difficult to figure out the relationship between physical teeth form, analog VR signal obtained, digital crank signal, decoded crank signal. That's why I showed the question that way in the post. For you it's easy but not for us dumb humans. So I just wanted to put your attention that a picture which is between these different things will be misleading for people who have to manage a non conventional trigger pattern. Your effort to create that picture is useful but not perfect yet.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

"gap in range" so the decoding can work and reset tooth number correctly?

If that's not the problem, is it the anormal first tooth wideness? ?
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

top line of sniffer.png
top line of sniffer.png (1.39 KiB) Viewed 771 times
Can you explain the meaning of the numbers of the top line of sniffer please ?
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by AndreyB »

event index within cycle
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JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

This is engine sniffer on trigger self stimulator (to compare with above sniffer data) :
sniffre on stimulator.png
sniffre on stimulator.png (34.01 KiB) Viewed 735 times
Some observations :
TDC is correctly aligned with event 28 so tooth 14
Spark is correctly on 0 °
Extract from message text at sync zone for stimulator :
message at sync zone.png
message at sync zone.png (14.73 KiB) Viewed 728 times
Extract from message text at sync zone from engine data :
Sync zone on engine.png
Sync zone on engine.png (18.09 KiB) Viewed 728 times
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

In the trigger decoder is it possible to skip event 1 and 2 (tooth 1)and to discribe the wheel as a 57 - 3 teeth wheel ?
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by AndreyB »

Realistically there are two people who can help here - Matt and myself.

I would not have time to thing about this until around April 30th. You best shot until April 30th is to chase Matt on Slack.
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JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

Thanks for your honest reply.

Perhaps I'm not in a hurry, because I sorted out most of the problems (these problems were entirely my fault I'm ashame). The good thing about doing idiotic things is that they force me to work. I learned to use engine sniffer and console, both great tools if you want to understand what's going on.

Next I will run some tests to mesure accuracy with the un-perfect decoder, I bet it will largely sufficient for me to progress in my build. Will report when done.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

top line of sniffer.png
top line of sniffer.png (1.39 KiB) Viewed 692 times
Why are there two lines for angle ?
Why are they sometimes n/a ?
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by AndreyB »

Angles from sync point.

If there are no sync points in sight it would be n/a
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JPh
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

Some timing gun tests at low mid and high RPM.
0 degree advance and 0 degree offset.




The timing drifts with RPM.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

Oscillograms in the same conditions :
low rpm trigger.png
low rpm trigger.png (6.24 KiB) Viewed 431 times
mid rpm trigger.png
mid rpm trigger.png (6.89 KiB) Viewed 431 times
high rpm trigger.png
high rpm trigger.png (6.72 KiB) Viewed 431 times
Curiously, there is not as much drift in the signals as in the videos.
Timing gun artifact ?
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI

Post by JPh »

Question about ignition scheduler :

Does it calculate the ignition point using the crank event just before the aimed advance angle ?
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