[help needed] stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

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stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Turns out stm32f4 family now has 208-LQFP (28x28mm) options!
180MHz, 384K RAM.

For example STM32F469BIT6 is available. WIth this package we can have external SDRAM take a bunch of IO pins and still have a lot of IO pins left.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by kb1gtt »

Ohh, la la. Do they make this on a discovery board yet?
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Looks like the discovery board with the highest number of pins uses BGA216 package - so we can look at the schematics but not layout. That board has 4Mx32bit SDRAM and 128-Mbit Quad-SPI NOR Flash.

http://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/products/evaluation-tools/product-evaluation-tools/mcu-eval-tools/stm32-mcu-eval-tools/stm32-mcu-discovery-kits/32f469idiscovery.html
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by kb1gtt »

BGA and large temperature range = blah. Do they offer it in a flying lead package? Those can handle a large range of temperature before thy shear themselves off the PCB.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

I am lost.

This topic is about lqft 208. Disovery family only has bga above 200 pins.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by mck1117 »

Do we want the flash as well, or just the SRAM?

The flash isn't near full on the 407VG, and the 469BI has 2MB flash.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

I think yes, we want the flash
1) with extra RAM we can afford to have https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/tickets/133/
2) external RAM we would not be blocking code execution while writing into flash
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by mck1117 »

Yeah, those seem like reasonable reasons to include an external flash, especially with how obscenely cheap it is. That then unlocks the possibility of having the tune just stored as a file, so you can keep a history of every tune you've ever saved. Also you can deploy a tune with just the file browser instead of TunerStudio.

I'm sold now.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Ideally the board would repeat stm32f4discovery form factor and pinout. Hopefully that's possible? If needed extra pins could be outside of the discovery dimensions - nothing limits board size as long as pinout is the same.

I guess 176 project could be the starting point? or not.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by mck1117 »

A preliminary inspection looks like a reasonable number of pins overlap between SDRAM and pins used on Frankenso. Something like 15 pins overlap, mostly in port E, and more importantly PC0/2/3.

After the SDRAM, there aren't too many more pins left over, so it's probably reasonable to keep the same form factor as the f4discovery, but some pins will have to be changed.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

So same pinout for non-sdram pins and replacements of sake functionality for overlapping? Sounds good
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by mobyfab »

Keep in mind that anything larger than LQFP144 has a 0.4mm pitch.
Most SDRAM/Flash are very fine pitch or BGA as well.

An SD card would be sufficient for your use if you don't need blazing speeds.
You could even use it for firmware upgrades.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

mobyfab wrote:Keep in mind that anything larger than LQFP144 has a 0.4mm pitch.
I believe you are not correct here. http://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/stm32f469bi.pdf pages 207&208 seems to show 0.5mm pitch. 28x28mm package.

I am not considering even LQFP100 comfortable for DIY soldering - my plan is Made in China brain boards.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by mobyfab »

Indeed that was incorrect... I remember seeing this somewhere on an STM32 datasheet.
There are actually 2 versions, 0.4 and 0.5, in this case ST uses 0.5mm.
My bad :)

Anything below 0.8mm pitch starts to be annoying.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Hello and welcome!

The argument for LQFP is that it's still technically solderable by hand - even while I personally am afraid of even LQFP-100, I was able to solder at least one 176 board.

We just had an issue with trying a wrong part number on the 100 board - see http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=381&start=90#p24290 - so part availability is a bit of a concern.

Ideally we need same pinout at least for the basic pins as on the 100 board, and a battery socket same as on 100 and 176 chip. Maybe next step should be trying RAM on the 176 board since it's already available. Actually ideally I am looking for 8 line RAM instead of 16 line RAM to reduce pin usage, I can settle for less i/o speed and I do not need huge size.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

xtr0d3m0n wrote:So what sort of bit rate we are talking about?.If the bit rate is know its simple to calculate the frequency and the need of data bus width.But I think its better to have 16 bit DDR bus for future use.
Engines are very slow, external RAM would only be used for slow stuff like monitoring and self-tuning. Any rate would work. 8 bit could also make routing easier?

I am still voting for LQFP for DIY. BGA is not DIY.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by kb1gtt »

Hello and welcome along.

Yes PCB help please. Review of existing design always helpful, and designing new stuff is even better.

Ever sense KICAD got the push pull router, I don't know of many features that are offered by other packages, which I desire. I guess the parts libraries that are becoming common in Eagle are handy, and KICAD is missing some efficiency tools like ability to bulk change BOM items. It has been a while sense I've used Altium. I bet it has all been pushed around and different now. Any how, any PCB package that you are familiar with is handy and good. If I want your files in KICAD, I'll just reverse engineer them from the gerbers. What ever tools you have which allow you to produce gerbers is good.

About BGA, please analyze the wide temperature range. I'm concerned with thermal expansion issues and fatigue cracks under the array. Also keep in mind we do not have production runs that justify XRay scanning to verify that we have proper solder joints. In our case our low qty and lack of quality controls can cause a bunch of problems. I generally stay with flying leads on devices that are 1208 or larger, as they avoid an array of physical problems often seen in wide temperature range layouts.

Have you found the wiki yet? I have posted the suggested design parameters at the below page, which includes -40C to +85C ambient.
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware

Again pleasure to hear from you.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by kb1gtt »

This might be a bit OT for this thread. @xtr0d3m0n can you create a hello world thread such that we can talk about your specific stuff in that thread?

About a schematic and high level details, I agree we are lacking. The wiki is a good start, but needs allot of work. I do not know of any good tools for showing the high level connections of things. I once did the below with GIMP. I've also tried DIA and I even tried drawing a system level schematic with KICAD. However they all lack certain features. So far for making system schematics I think KICAD allows the best end results, but is very labor intensive and does not do error checking.
Image

Also we are not specifically tied to a processor at this point. We use the STM32F407 because it can be obtained for low $ on a PCB. We desire a board with a larger processor for increased memory, and increased features. The STM32F429 with LCD has a nice RAM chip, which would be handy. Also we would want to stay with a chip that is supported by ChibiOS. We have also looked at the SPC56x as it is automotive grade, which includes a variety of quality checks and reliability guarantees. This chip has ETPU's which is handy for offloading timing critical tasks. However there we do not know of a free compiler for for it. The free compiler has some problems which prevents it from being usable.

Do you think you would have interest in making a board that can fit on the existing headers with a larger processor perhaps a RAM chip?
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Great content is great, great navigation is also great. I will see if I can move some posts to move relevant threads, I would like to ask old and new forum members to stay somewhat on-topic of each specific thread.

This thread is about stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208 brain board.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

For op-amps see http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19&p=24545#p24545

Some posts would be out of order but that's the price we pay for off-topic combined with my OCD personality.
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000086771574.html fk429m1 dev board the board of my dream!

Attached cube pinout file courtesy of https://github.com/xwos/XWOS
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Those like to use MT48LC4M32B2 which are 32 bit data bus SDRAM meaning 16 more pins used comparing to x16 SDRAM on stm32f429-discovery

https://github.com/Krakenw/STM32F429BIT6-College-shop-Store/
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Re: stm32f4 MPU module LQFP 208

Post by AndreyB »

Well, a little LOL:

With JLCPCB doing only side assembly on a test board we have parts catalog on the front for all the parts we will move to the back.
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