Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:23 am

kb1gtt wrote:Break down voltage and creepage / clearance distances are 2 different things. ... I am not familiar with it or the context of this table.
Yes, sorry, it's a bad choice of words on my part. That table is for the "operating voltage rating between conducting copper elements on external pcb layers" (item #2.4.2, table #8), and the breakdown voltage will be even more high. Also it says that maximum recommended voltage is 2300V for FR-4 (glass-fibre laminate, textolite) and 1800V for FR-2 (paper-based laminate, paxolin).
Of course it's just for your information - to "broaden the mind", in a manner of speaking... :)

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:08 pm

The below shows some other standards, IPC and UL which are shown in a graph. The below web page specifically notes "Note the curves below are for functional (not safety!) insulation."
http://www.smps.us/pcbtracespacing.html

I added GOST-23.751-86 to a graph posted on that page. See this graph.
pcbtracespacing.png
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by Rhinoman » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:23 pm

kb1gtt wrote: Most OEM ignition chips that I've seen have been protected, for between 350V to 450V. Perhaps larger coils instead of CDI pencils have a higher kick back.
Yes usually around 400V to 450V clamping for an Ignition IGBT, that sets the maximum voltage that can be seen in the high tension side. I've not seen any higher and I've worked with some fairly high energy coils, if you need more energy then you use more current. Higher voltages would need better insulation and that means different materials and higher costs.

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:17 pm

I see how that might be flipped from how I intended it. In a prior post, the fellow mentioned a primary of around 150V. I noted what I've seen was 350V to 450V which and I was intending to suggest that perhaps the 350V to 450V was because what I've worked with was not a pencil coil, but full blown coils.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:05 pm

Prometheus PCBs @ my warehouse, on the way home:
prometheus-pcb-rev0010-photo1.jpg
Prometheus rev.0010 Real PCB photo
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:39 am

Sweet, and looks good.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by darxfame » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:19 pm

Hello, today i made a wiring diagram for Prometheus ECU. You can view it in attachments. If you have questions or patchs, make a comment for me.
Also, see pdf-version here: http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25004#p25004
Prometeus connect map.png
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by russian » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:12 am

Wow, looks great! Is that GIMP or something esle to make it?
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by darxfame » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:13 am

russian wrote:Wow, looks great! Is that GIMP or something esle to make it?
I make it in Corel Draw x8

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:18 am

That is very nice. I'm also wondering how you made it. I've tried gimp, dia and a couple other tools.

I might suggest you show a bit lower level detail. For example is the other side of the engine light connected to ground, fused battery, other? Is the intent to show what sensors can be attached​ or is the intent to snow how it is wired? If I know the intended use I can make suggestion which help that use.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:04 am

kb1gtt wrote:For example is the other side of the engine light connected to ground, fused battery, other?
If LED light is used, then both modes are supported: to ground (high-current) or +12v dash fuse (using on-board 1k pull-up resistor and inverted pin mode). That's why we didn't show the other side - free choice...
kb1gtt wrote:Is the intent to show what sensors can be attached​ or is the intent to snow how it is wired? If I know the intended use I can make suggestion which help that use.
The intent was to give some basic illustrative insight into the general board use, focusing mostly on the wiring for a common car config. A starting point for beginners, asking "what kind of stuff can be connected anyway?"... We intentionally set aside some car-dependent aspects like fuse setup (there'll be 5 or so fuses used on a real car), electric fan control etc.
Eventually we'll reveal more and more advanced details for you to see the whole picture! :)

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by darxfame » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:18 am

kb1gtt wrote:That is very nice. I'm also wondering how you made it. I've tried gimp, dia and a couple other tools.

I might suggest you show a bit lower level detail. For example is the other side of the engine light connected to ground, fused battery, other? Is the intent to show what sensors can be attached​ or is the intent to snow how it is wired? If I know the intended use I can make suggestion which help that use.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:48 pm

Added link to the interactive components map:
https://rawgit.com/andreika-git/prometh ... s-map.html

This is a test version; still needs a lot of improvements...

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Sat May 06, 2017 7:35 pm

Starting board assembly:

Populating Power Supply and MCU (STM32F469):
pcb-mcu.jpg
Power Supply & MCU populated
pcb-mcu.jpg (1.32 MiB) Viewed 4775 times
Adding USB components with protection & opto-isolator:
pcb-usb.jpg
USB components
pcb-usb.jpg (1000.66 KiB) Viewed 4775 times
Now Prometheus is ready for it's first connect via USB:
pcb-power-mcu-usb.jpg
Power Supply & MCU & USB populated
pcb-power-mcu-usb.jpg (655.34 KiB) Viewed 4775 times
Stay tuned!

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Sun May 07, 2017 12:36 am

Sweet, keep up the good work.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Tue May 09, 2017 4:08 pm

Almost ready:
pcb-almost-all.jpg
Almost (big photo!)
pcb-almost-all.jpg (1.96 MiB) Viewed 4712 times
Populated all except the battery holder and ignition BIP373s.
Power consumption is over 1.3W... :shock:

Now it's time to check if any of these actually works!.. :)

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Tue May 09, 2017 5:09 pm

Very nice.

I notice it appears you do not like putting thermal via's directly under the larger chips. I was wondering if that is a personal preference or if you happen to know a source like an app note or similar that suggest to avoid via's under chips. I generally put the thermal via's directly under the chip to keep the Rth as low as I can. I've wondered if there were thermal cycling concerns with this approach. So far I have not found solid evidence if these via's have a long term concern or not.

Keep up the good work. You certainly have good patience. There are many components to install, and baby stepping through each circuit to make sure it's working is a daunting task. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Tue May 09, 2017 6:01 pm

kb1gtt wrote:I was wondering if that is a personal preference
You're right, it's more like a personal preference for all non-thermal loaded chips - a little easier to solder. ;) Besides, I haven't noticed any signs of temperature rise on SECU-3i board, so I guess it's acceptable.
kb1gtt wrote:Keep up the good work. You certainly have good patience. There are many components to install, and baby stepping through each circuit to make sure it's working is a daunting task. Keep up the good work.
Thank you! I wish I had some kind of testing routines - currently I have no idea how to test CJ125 or HIP9011...

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by russian » Tue May 09, 2017 7:51 pm

andreika wrote:I have no idea how to test ... HIP9011...
hipinfo would at least show if SPI looks good or not.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Tue May 09, 2017 9:17 pm

If you can get it on a running engine, @ had tried something, but it did not work for his application. Diesel has an octane that specifically tries to induce knock and detonation. He had a car running on a high % of diesel mixed with gas. He was hoping to change the octane and induce knock. In his case he was not able to get the engine under load, so no knock, or at least he doesn't think he was able to get knock. Perhaps he was able to get knock, but simply didn't have a way to measure it. As well I believe that engine shortly after this testing had sever issues with oil on the plugs, which is a common problem with detonation issues. So who knows.

Any how, that might be one way to test it.

I have also seen some claims where people connected a PC then played a recorded signal with and with out knock. This might work with capacitance coupling, and might allow for at least basic testing, but probably does not allow for windowing, or real calibrated measurements.

We had allot of problems getting the XTAL to start. So if it does not work, perhaps pay extra attention to the XTAL. I recall @ was able to get it to start if he touched it very lightly. His small ESD on the XTAL housing was enough to bump it and make it go.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by Tomin » Tue May 09, 2017 10:01 pm

As per "crystal start oscil.", was not there big capacitance load in an schematic ? I think I saw some mistake like that there some time ago
and also commented it here.
(don't have currently free time, pls. trace my posts in a history for that)
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Tue May 09, 2017 10:44 pm

kb1gtt wrote:We had allot of problems getting the XTAL to start. So if it does not work, perhaps pay extra attention to the XTAL
My first task is just to establish a connection via SPI. It's not time for knock sensing yet ;)
I've populated a different type XTAL (AMB3B-8MHz) with 10pF caps - we'll see if it works. If not, I'll revert to good old HC49. First of all, I need to modify the code to work with SPI3 instead of SPI2 (open-drain config issues). All pull-ups on CS, MOSI & SCK are marked as "DNP" on Frankenso schematic, but I have a suspicion they're still needed - and that's a bit confusing...

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Wed May 10, 2017 1:05 am

The XTAL issues was mostly here http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=903&p=13673

It resulted in the notes on the TPIC page in the bottom left-ish. From memory I think I had originally had 20pF, at one point we were up to 27pF and I believe the min was 18pF.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Thu May 11, 2017 10:12 pm

The first testing stage for Prometheus board is COMPLETE!
Successfully tested:
- Power supply: OK
- MCU (STM32F469): OK
- USB-driver: OK
- MicroSD card: OK
- Knock controller: OK (connection only)
- WBO controller: OK (connection only)
- Trigger controller: OK (1 channel, test signal w/o sensors)
- Analog inputs: OK (checked CLT, IAT, MAP, TPS, O2, Voltage)
- Power outputs: OK (checked CheckEngine, Tachometer, FuelPump, CoolingFan)
- Coil/injector outputs: OK (no load)
- Digital inputs: OK
- IAC stepper driver: OK (no load)
- CAN-bus: OK (connection, ELM327-bt)
TODO:
- Bluetooth
- Harness, sensors
- Car testing
Problems:
- UART connection is unstable (38400, 57600 tested) - work in progress (remove diodes etc.).

* * *

Prometheus project files are now available!

Schematic diagram

Gerber files

To be continued...

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Fri May 12, 2017 1:18 am

Is D26 backwards? Why do you need D26, etc?

232 is point to point. Perhaps you should isolate one device, and get it working with one device first. I'm not sure that the multiple devices will play nice.

Looks good and glad to hear that initial testing is going well.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Fri May 12, 2017 8:41 am

We have both USB (cp2102+adum) and Bluetooth (hc-06) connected to the same UART. So to avoid output competing we use a primitive form of "AND-gate" to combine two Tx signals.
We put two diodes, one in series with the BT tx (D26) and one in series with the ADUM tx (D23). The cathodes go to the BT or USB and the anodes tied together, and also pull-uped with R115 resistor.
Here's a reference:
Image
(Well, there's also the third diode D22, needed for an optional external Tx connection...)

This solution was successfully used in SECU-3 (@57600), and thus 'propagated' to Prometheus.
Of course, both cannot talk at the same time (data contention), but at least they do separately. And for sure this solution is far from ideal (74HC11 would be better but no space left).

So you're right, the next plan is to try with only one device. And as I've said before, one of the diodes should be removed (replaced with a jumper) for the test.

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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by russian » Fri May 12, 2017 9:52 am

Why not use native USB for serial? It's faster and does not have the baud complexity?

I guess it's also more fragile in terms of EMI?
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Fri May 12, 2017 10:20 am

russian wrote:Why not use native USB for serial?
1. The first reason is "405". The bluetooth module still requires 2 pins for UART. And there're no free pins left for USB on STM32F405 (all 64 pins used!). The 405 has been chosen as a primary chip for Prometheus because of potential risks of obtaining the 469 chip at that time (and running it on the old ChibiOS too).
2. The second reason is phantom power and electric isolation. There was a strict design requirement of a single 12V power supply, and no USB phantom power. And there's no space on pcb for a good USB5V-5V conflict solving circuitry as in Frankenso.

P.S. BTW, it seems that the recent frankenso_schematic.pdf update is messed up: :?
Frankenso_schematic_messed_up.png
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by kb1gtt » Fri May 12, 2017 10:42 am

Hmmmm, PDF usually fails on the first page. I haven't noticed it fail like this before. This should be correctly shortly. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Prometheus - NEW compact ECU shield!

Post by andreika » Tue May 23, 2017 7:52 pm

I'm glad to inform that all UART-related problems are gone!
We've just made a modified UART driver with async DMA-mode transfers and FIFO-buffering - and now we have a stable 115200 connect under any conditions! :D
And all diodes are still populated, and no schematics changes required! 8-)

Still a lot of work to do...

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