rusefi.com

960 wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:36 pm

About power-supply, why dont we use a proper Automotive IC?

Supplier and cost?

Infineon: https://no.mouser.com/Infineon/Semiconductors/Power-Management-ICs/_/N-wnwh?P=1z0zl9uZ1y95l4v

Can I tempt you to find a chip which offers 5V 250mA (or more) for misc chips like the MAX9926, a second 5V (or 3.3V) 250mA (or more) for analog signals, and 3.3V 200mA for the STM 32. Over current, temperature shut down, AEQ, watch dog and similar features wold be useful. Low cost would be nice, but not required. I see a need for these three power lines, the rest of the features on the CY320 or TLE7368 seem like they are not needed. As well it seems like that would be a hard to find chip. Can we find a chip with an expected long life, and minimal PCB size? The cost of these chips are low, so lets put cost at a lower priority. If you find such a chip, can you put that chip in a thread?

5V @ 250mA or more
5V or 3.3V @ 250mA or more
3.3V @ 250mA or more

kb1gtt wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:59 pm

Perhaps this is getting off topic for this thread.

Can I tempt you to find a chip which offers 5V 250mA (or more) for misc chips like the MAX9926, a second 5V (or 3.3V) 250mA (or more) for analog signals, and 3.3V 200mA for the STM 32. Over current, temperature shut down, AEQ, watch dog and similar features wold be useful. Low cost would be nice, but not required. I see a need for these three power lines, the rest of the features on the CY320 or TLE7368 seem like they are not needed. As well it seems like that would be a hard to find chip. Can we find a chip with an expected long life, and minimal PCB size? The cost of these chips are low, so lets put cost at a lower priority. If you find such a chip, can you put that chip in a thread?

5V @ 250mA or more
5V or 3.3V @ 250mA or more
3.3V @ 250mA or more

Not as easy as I would think.

Most of them have a lot of extra stuff that make them too complicated.

Found a few that could be useful?

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/product-selector-card/HVChargePump_Rev_A.pdf

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-_Power_Supply_ICs_Overview_BR_2017-SG-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d46259b0420a0159cff7862404fd


http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps65320d-q1.pdf?HQS=TI-null-null-mousermode-df-pf-null-wwe&DCM=yes&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fno.mouser.com%2F

How about TLF35584 https://octopart.com/tlf35584qkvs2xuma2-infineon-84309709?r=sp&s=kubc0sWBRD6bawA8oyVPiA

It's a switching pre-regulator, followed by multiple linear with lots of diagnostics over SPI. You can use one LDO to supply the analog signals, such that if you dead short a signal, your MCU is still powered, and knows that you dead shorted the analog. Lots of nice features of this regulator.

Page 234 of the below, seems to show this is one chip, with a couple caps and 2X inductors, that's pretty much all. Very few components.
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Infineon%20PDFs/TLF35584_Rev2.0_3-16-17.pdf

960 wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:36 pm

russian wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:47 am

@ are you trying to make by any chance? Do you draft to share?

Hi!

Yes, I have given it a try

I have sent it to kb1gtt on mail, can send it to you as well.

About power-supply, why dont we use a proper Automotive IC?

I am currently drawing the schematic for a Bosch CY320

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.com/media/automotive_systems_ics/pdf_1/ic_engine_management/bosch_ic_cy320.pdf

Could this be something of interest maybe?

Infineon also have several others similar(Bosch IC's are Infineon).

"Applications:
12 V, 24 V Industrial, Automotive and
Communications Power Systems"

Dron_Gus wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:56 pm

TLE7368 looks good choice

TLE6361 has poor availability https://octopart.com/search?q=TLE6361
TLE7368 has good US availability $9 in US https://octopart.com/search?q=TLE7368 and $8 on eBay. Shall we like TLE7368?

TLE7368 (3E) is actually only $6.45 on Mouser. It is a fairly complex chip that should be able to fulfill all our power supply needs. But the complexity also makes it a bit of a pain to implement. It will require a fair bit of external circuitry to work.

Are there better options than the TLF35584? If so what chips and what are the benefits?

kb1gtt wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Are there better options than the TLF35584? If so what chips and what are the benefits?

Are we concerned about 48VQFN package? Is this DIY realistic?

what's the point of using one megachip? why not several lm7805?

Not concerned about 48VQFN. The LQFP-64 is flying lead, and easy to solder. See TLF35584QKVS2
https://octopart.com/tlf35584qkvs2xuma2-infineon-84309709?r=sp&s=2FaUtqavSPmLrdLA_GzZrA

This chip operates down to 3V. It has pre-regulator that bucks and boost creating about 5.8V, followed by LDO's. AKA you have 5V output, from 3V input. It also has lots of diagnostics via SPI. Without diagnostics, if LDO is failing, you get wrong readings via ADC. This could cause the ECU to think the TPS has been opened when it has not. The diagnostics option allows you to know if there is a power supply problem. Also this chip includes precision 5V reference. AKA absolute and ratiometric capabilities from a ratiometric supply, as you know you have 5V. This chip costs about $5 from genuine sources.

russian wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:28 pm

kb1gtt wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Are there better options than the TLF35584? If so what chips and what are the benefits?

Are we concerned about 48VQFN package? Is this DIY realistic?

Test pcb
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F122589956355

I like the features of the TLF35584 chip so have added it to my hardware (third major power supply change so far before finishing the draft). I have put the draft of the power supply on github (hopefully)... feedback welcome.

I have borrowed the protection arrangement from frankenso and added it to the frontend. Hopefully ive got everything about right as it was a leaning experience for the step up converter. I not really sure how to make the best use of the multiple 5v supplies by segregating their functions so ideas here would be good too.

https://github.com/kneelo/rusefi/blob/master/hardware/Hyperion/Hyperion%20power%20supply%20schematic%20DRAFT.pdf

Please stop posting anymore interesting regulator chips as I don't want to change it again.

Oh, it looks like KICAD. What version? Any chance it's KICAD 4? Also any chance you'll share the source files? I like to the ERC and other such tools in KICAD when checking a design.

I see in the border 5.0.2.

I think a break out board is beneficial with this. I don't fully follow exactly how this chip works. I believe it turns on for some short period of time, then turns off if the SPI doesn't keep it powered. I'm really just guessing about what it does. A breakout board is likely a benefit, as it would surface un-known issues.

I can offer a review, or other help if you post the KICAD files. I have a PC with KICAD 5. However my repo is stuck at KICAD 4 as there are lots of libs and similar things that need to change for me to jump to the newer KICAD. I plan to make the jump with KICAD 6.

Yep kicad 5.0.2 as you worked out. Made the switch recently when i had some eagle files i had to work with... that bit works great and nothing else appears to have broken so happy with it so far.

It would appear the wake/enable signals control it primarily but i need to have another look at the datasheet and ideally test a breakout. I will copy this into a new file and share as im not ready the release the rest of this schematic until its a bit more finished.

kneelo wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:24 pm

Yep kicad 5.0.2 as you worked out. Made the switch recently when i had some eagle files i had to work with... that bit works great and nothing else appears to have broken so happy with it so far.

It would appear the wake/enable signals control it primarily but i need to have another look at the datasheet and ideally test a breakout. I will copy this into a new file and share as im not ready the release the rest of this schematic until its a bit more finished.

Could you share the kicad schematic file for this?

I don't have time to right now but give me a few days and I will put it up on github as a breakout board.

Is there a drafted board for this TLF35584 chip? If one already exists, then great. If not then I'll likely make one to be test out this chip.

Kicad files for this can be found here

https://github.com/kneelo/rusefi/tree/master/hardware/TLF35584%20breakout

At the moment its a partially completed schematic. Footprints are associated but may not be correct. I think the pins on the symbol for the main chip are identified incorrectly as I get a few ERC errors. I haven't figured out how to use BOM's in Kicad well so some parts aren't very well described at the moment.

I plan to keep working on it unless someone else jumps in and completes it.

Do you have an ETA for when you think you'll have a PCB drafted?

Was too hot here today to do much outside so did some more on this. Found lots of problems with the original schematic and not very confident there still isn't some issues but here it is...

https://github.com/kneelo/rusefi/tree/master/hardware/TLF35584%20breakout

I am planning to keep tweaking this until I'm happy with it.

V0.1 hardware done... gerbers and kicad files are on github

This looks great! I am ready to order the board. Jared do you approve?

Can you please generate BOM .csv files?

Do you plan a github pull request or can I manually merge into rusEfi repo? At some point I've tried PMing you the slack https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1198 link to discuss github details there.

Will sort out the BOM later today.

Caveats and disclamers before you order... I have used small footprints with the intention that this will be assembled and reflowed in a skillet or oven. Not really sure how this would be integrated into an ecu so all the pin headers might not suit you. Would be best if someone else has a chance to look and comment first as i am an electronics design noob!

Ive never really used github as intended (to collaborate) before so will see if i can work out how to do this pull request you speak of.

Pull request contains all your changes from specific branch. I believe at the moment you have.multiple unrelated changes on your master branch so you would probably need a new branch on your sifr and to re-commit or re-upload changes into for the right pull request

I get a failed symbol, probably because my c:\blah\\rusefi_kneelo\hardware\rusefi_lib is an empty folder. I'm not sure how the symbol is found on your system. I suspect you have "configured a path" which is a system specific thing, and does not get saved with the project files. I was expecting to find the symbol under preferences --> manage symbol libraries --> project specific library.

About the BOM, I'll be detailing that in anther thread. I think I need to make some changes to how mine are done, such that a file will be saved in a folder which is captured in the repo, and includes a picture or instruction on how to configure the BOM. Stay tuned.

About the design, I'm scratching my head about L1, the 22uH at 3A. Is there a reference design or similar app note which caused you to put in this L1? I do not see an inductor like that on this eval board https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/evaluation-boards/tlf35584qvvs2-board/

On Infeons page I see

For datasheet and further support, please contact your sales representative or the Technical Assistance Center (TAC)

Have you contacted them yet? I wonder if they would share the BOM from one of the eval boards.

I though I had the path set as a project specific variable and have been saving everything in the one folder but maybe not properly... will research what I have done wrong...

I haven't contacted infineon about the eval board but probably should. L1 is based on the recommended starting point for inductance in section 16 of the data sheet and a calculator for the boost converter that I used which said the inductor and diode should be sized for 8A based on the minimum voltage and switching frequency...

Also have homework to work out github!